I don't get 'The Patriarchy'

And are you really so blissfully unaware that modern society or not, the biggest influence on a person's psychological and emotional development and outlook, is their experience of childhood and the norms in their own immediate family and the messages they take from that, Bonsoir? And that it may take them years and years to escape the conditioning of those early experiences and grasp the benefits of modern society, particularly if they are not socially and psychologically placed to take full advantage of those benefits, by which time they have made the bad choices that you so smugly dismiss as the result of lack of proper research? Denial isn't something anyone consciously chooses you know.

I knew you didn't have much empathy, but I had thought you were better informed.

Can you really not perceive the difference between family legacy (which might not be ideal) and modern society? That no woman in the Western world is the victim of a "patriarchal society" (of the Saudi sort)?

This is just more victim blaming Bonsoir.

The difference between your opinion and mine, is that I don't think that I am better, cleverer, wiser, more deserving or have made better choices than people less fortunate than me.

I just think that I am fortunate and privileged. I have done nothing to earn that good fortune or privilege.

Beachcomber - the French education system and the French health care system give women every possible opportunity to escape primitive family values. If women choose not to do so, that really is their issue, not one of a patriarchal society. I know plenty of women and men born with very little into primitive family values systems in France who have flourished thanks to a society that supports individual choice.

Of course, some people choose not to seize the opportunities that civilised society offers and remain in primitive states of mind. That is unfortunate, but it is not the fault of a patriarchal or primitive society.

Oh and I'm not talking about real life women in order to 'score points'. I'm talking about real life women because feminism is concerned with the real life experiences of real life women.

Feminism isn't a debate or a game - it is a value system and political movement.

I didn't say that child labour has no parallels to female exploitation - children and women are both sectors of society that are vulnerable to exploitation and abuse of power.

I said child labour is not an oppressive political system - it is exploitative behaviour which exists within a political system. Patriarchy is a social and political system.

How do you think oppressive systems operate if it is not through violence or the threat of violence? Dominating behaviour is aggressive, controlling and manipulating. Perhaps you prefer the term 'force' to violent? It is possibly better adapted to the patriarchy operating in the UK.

Just noticed this from Himalaya;

"They don't have half their children come out black and the other half white. And if they did they wouldn't love their black children and their white children equally."

Have you never heard of attempts to remedy this? There are many cultures where female children are aborted/abandoned/sold/considered to have less worth than male children.

I don't know if one could say that female children are loved less (and I'm not sure the concept is useful in raw political terms), but they are certainly treated differently. (A simple example would be female children not being educated or taught work skills.)

Bonsoir do you understand that the person I have referred to is real? She exists, in exactly the circumstances I have described.

My argument is that the way society is organised at the moment renders women vulnerable to the abuse of male power.

Your argument is that women who are abused by male power 'have made bad choices'.

Ok, now for the logical bit - people do not choose their birth circumstances. They do not choose where they are born and what their parents will be like. They do not choose to be born poor or Catholic or Muslim or female or rich or advantaged or whatever.

Tell you what Bonsoir - let's test your theory;

We'll jump in a time machine and see how your life turns out if you were born into a poor Catholic family with a violent alcoholic father and were married to your violent alcoholic second cousin on your 18th birthday. You have no qualifications because nobody ever read to you at home or helped you with your homework. Nobody ever told you that you were good for anything other than housework and you were never encouraged to think you would be able to get a job. The same goes for most of the women you know. You do have a friend who bucked the trend and left the community and got a job - nobody speaks to her however because she is a stuck up cow who thinks she is better than everyone else. You did once try to leave your husband but your parents turned you away and told you 'had made you bed and had to lie on it' (and your father threatened to beat you if your husband didn't sort you out). You have no front teeth or self esteem because your husband knocked them out of you so it is hard for you to get job/leave your husband/protect your children. Good luck!

I didn't say anything of the sort, and by saying I did you are only confirming my suspicion that you are unable to follow a logical argument.

"I think you know I am right but don't want to admit it"

Bonsoir you couldn't be more wrong and you are creeping me out with that weird wink.

I think your views are offensive and ignorant to the extreme. You are implying that women who suffer domestic abuse deserve it. Whereas I think 'there but for the grace of god go I'.

"White supremacy is generally opposed to integration, and is often associated with legal and physical segregation."

What like in Saudi Arabia where it is illegal for women to drive cars or vote?

Extreme examples of course, just as the white supremacy of, say, South Africa was extreme.

(See above examples of female/black US president for the other end of the scale.)

"some women are victims of their own minds rather than of male patriarchy." OMG. so a woman being beaten by her husband is a victim of her own mind not iof her husband. He bears no responsiblity for that state of affairs at all?

I am with Beachcomer. Vile.

I think it is only right and proper to point out that some women are victims of their own minds rather than of male patriarchy. I don't think you are offended by that - I think you know I am right but don't want to admit it

I'm not claiming that white supremacy and male supremacy manifest in exactly the same ways all the time . I'm saying that the tools and mechanisms of the oppression are comparable and often the same - unequal political representation of the oppressed group for example.

The reason I am saying this is that sometimes people find it easier to get to grips with what patriarchy is when they compare it to white supremacy. Most people have a pretty good understanding of what white supremacy is, so the analogy is helpful to them.

Most people can see that it was a big deal when a black person become President of the US. Most people can also see that it would be a big deal politically for a woman to be elected president of the US.

Child labour is not an oppressive political system (in the way that white male supremacy is) - it is exploitation of vulnerable members of society.

(Bonsoir I find your comments about my Catholic acquaintance offensive and extraordinarily lacking in empathy and humanity. In fact your comment just comes across as 'I'm alright jackism' with a thoroughly unpleasant streak of victim blaming running through it.)

Himalaya - but you would agree, surely, that child labour is not a problem in developed societies?

In fact, it is so difficult to employ children because of legislation to prevent exploitation of minors that it is very hard to think of any way that children can earn pocket money or gain work experience!

I don't buy your example, Beachcomber, because I don't think that there is any excuse for being imprudent enough to have 10 children when you live and have been educated in a developed society. That woman wasn't oppressed - she was in denial about the fact that she lived with outdated Catholic mores. Society puts every support in place for women to control their own fertility.

What on earth is 'wanting it all' supposed to mean?

I think society is badly organised with regards to child rearing. I didn't have a problem with giving up my financial independence for a while. I chose to do it.

However I do have a problem with a society which places so much importance and power on a system which makes it difficult for women to perform natural functions without having to put themselves in the precarious position of losing their independence.

Ok, here is an example. It is not about me because I am lucky in that my children's father is a nice man who did not take advantage of my financial dependence on him.

I know a woman who has 10 children. She has 10 children because she and her husband are strict Catholics. She comes from a culture where women are expected to give up work or work less when they have children. She is financially dependant on her husband - who hits her. He has knocked quite a few of her teeth out. He quite openly says that he will not pay for her to go to the dentist to get her teeth fixed as 'what does she need teeth for, she never goes out, she's is there to stay in and look after the children'.

Get it now Bonsoir? Not everyone is as lucky as you or I. And it shouldn't be about 'luck' in a civilised society.

People are "treated badly" all over the world, every day. If you don't want to be "treated badly", your only reasonable option is to research the decisions you make very carefully indeed in order to control the outcomes to the very best of your ability.

Also one just has to listen to the number of women who are treated badly during childbirth.

I was fairly lucky myself but even so I was made to give birth in stirrups (against my wishes) and was threatened with forceps if I didn't 'pull myself together'. I know countless women who had appallingly badly managed births and who have suffered physical and emotional trauma as a result.

You are gradually answering your own question.

You want it all. Why do you think you deserve it?