Article on Motherhood in Guardian

but anyway, i'm glad it all worked out.

Because it reflects the gender roles we all anticipate and are socialised into- "women's work". Even to extent that blokes say they are 'babysitting' their own kids NormanTebbit. No idea why we all do it. I did a straw poll with an A level class and they all had a penny drop moment when I msaid- 'has your Dad ever said "I've done the washing up for you love" to your Mum'. they had not thought of it before, and I was a bit sad that there was little variation in this- as in very few families had 'symmetrical conjugal roles'.

Why do women apologise for men then? Why do they treat men's domestic work as a favour? My mother will not let my father cook because he doesn't do it 'right' (her way) and he is then content to let her do it.

Today I am in control of the washing. I put things away in a haphazard fashion, DP cannot find clothes for the children thus cannot 'help'' he is angry and frustrated. I get the clothes out.

Your story should be part of all nursery education- we need to stop doing the triple shift stuff and then perhaps we may edge towards equality.
Lovely tale by the way- and even better if he still does this now- after first flush passed etc.

I was on daily inspections on the military cause I couldnt iron the shirts. They are extremely difficult they have loads of folds in the back! I used to get so wound up about it and then we met and he used to come round to my barrack block pick them up and take them to his and do them all and shine my shoes so I could come out so we could snog for hours or otherwise I wouldnt have been able to go out!

sound idyllic noodle69

Kangers....you probably wouldn't wish it if you saw my house right now ;-)

I still stand by if you started off not doing anything then they wont make you do it. I didnt cook my husband a meal ever not even once until I had a child. I do it sometimes now but only mainly to feed my daughter.

He used to pick up all my clothes and iron them and drop them back off to me when I met even within a few weeks of meeting. He also used to shine my shoes for me so I could come out.

That is just how I am as I was what you might call domestically challenged when we met! I told him he would never make a housewife out of me and he said he didnt care. Its never been a problem as I was honest from the outset. A man will still marry you if he wants you enough.

Snowmama- that's the bit I really struggle with. Judge myself and others very harshly if live in a mess. And that's not very helpful and contributes to my own triple shift.
wish I could be like you , you domestic slattern!

agree dittany, and thought that's what I said snowmama- clearly if women doing triple shift then not got it all- just got a lot more shit- and men still have power in our patriarchal society.

Guardian article did not suggest how to resolve the issue (guess we're expected to buy the book). I would suggest do as my niece says- and not have kids. But that's easy for me to say with 3 dc.

Also..speaking as a domestic slattern...when a man realised you a genuinely not going to clean up after them..they get tend to get very distressed about it.

Kangers...pulling the 'triple shift' is not feminism allowing 'women to have it all'.....it is a con ...pretending feminism had achieved its aims, making women wanting further change appear unreasonable. Don't believe the hype.

I agree dittany. Men have lots of responsibility here.
Swallowedafly I see your logic- but do you see mine that biological differences still have an impact on this debate- they cannot be ignored and certainly do not excuse/ justify bad behaviour from Men.

And dittany, I really struggle to get dh help, and so do so many of my friends. If women stopped shopping, cooking, cleaning, organising kids, washing etc then men do not step in do they- they just live in a pigsty, leave dc homework undone, send dc out in dirty clothes, eat takeaways and sandwiches etc etc. I know many men not like this, but a hell of a lot are.

After 18 years of marriage nearly, my dh does do quite a lot, but it has taken some effort. This is why we almost discount men in the discussion- because they often have different standards.

I suppose it is different now (since 2001) if you are at the lower end of the scale as you get your childcare paid for so if a woman wants to work they can and keep their skills up for when they are older. (thats what I am hoping to do!)

I think it must be hard if a man has to go away all the time and I dont think I would be able to handle that situation personally.

I really don't get why this article has caused such ire on the other thread - she's absolutely right that the balance gets tipped very heavily in the father's favour once a couple have children.

I see it with all my friends in relationships, regardless of what the relationship was like before. Especially in the first year.

Astronaut I think what you describe, and what the Guardian article describes is very true.
Women take on the lion's share of childcare, and the reasons for this are complex and varied. But bottom line, its women doing the 'triple shift' of paid work, house work and childcare. This has been discussed by feminists and sociologists since the 1980's (Ann Oakley). Sociologically its to do with gender roles, primary and secondary socialisation etc.
There may be a psychological reason too- not sure if we like this but- rarely in the mammal world is it the case that males do not know when females are ovulating (Some monkey's communicate fertility with red bottoms, dogs can tell through smell). So human males do not know with 100% certainty that their child is their child (unless they imprison their wives for months on end- think Taliban ruled Afghanistan). Research suggests that up to 10% of children are cukolded (raised by a man who thinks its theirs but its not). This could be a biological/ evolutionary reason for the difference in the gender roles. Not sure how significant it is compared to all social effects/TV/Magazines etc.
But still think Guardian journalist is right, and that feminism has allowed women to have it all, but men have not had to change.

women are pretty much prevented from working in the areas i have spent my adult life. all british. all working or middle class. due to a combination of factors - the fact that is a male dominated workplace, the fact that the only jobs available for women are poorly paid or non-existent, the fact that the male partners are likely to disappear for weeks or months on end, leaving the women carrying the childcare can in any case, the fact that employers know they will get you to the point of being trained and capable, and then you will leave, so they will have to start all over again with the next woman lucky enough to have persuaded them to emply her... etc etc etc.

so women are either financially compromised by their lack of career progression, or the fact that they can't get a job anyway, or they can't get ad-hoc childcare for when the dh is away. and the system demands that the women be able to cope in any and all situations. flexibility prevents employment in itself.

of course there are exceptions. (i'm not one of them - as i said, my job is poorly paid with no prospects, and i'm leaving in ten days. through choice, it's another three months until we are moving, but in the vain hope of bettering my employment chances, i'm finally going to finish the course i started three years ago.) but i know what the rule is. but then i know what society's rules are about childcare as well, and i choose to buck that trend. there is no possibility of an equal career progression though. can't buck that one. not yet. still trying.

'in my village about 10% of the women work'

Here women work and if you dont work for years it is looked down upon in my area a lot. That usually comes from being seen as being fully supported on benefits if they dont work. Its been drummed in to me that not working isnt an option all the way through my childhood so its strange how things I suppose expectations are completely different here.

I feel here there is huge social implications to being a SAHM.