Dads and babies

If woman are taking the majority of the decisions about childcare etc.
Why are there so many twattish men around? What is influencing them?

Something isn't working.

IME quite a lot of men are quite cheerful to be excluded from childcare. Men openly saying they stay late at the office so that they miss the frantic bit and just roll in for the nice bit of bedtime, that sort of thing.

Just a thought.

Also, do couples with a very traditional set-up - mum doing the children and dad doing the earning - really split up more than couples with more "modern" ideas? I would have thought that couples with traditional values would be more likely to stay together especially while the children are young.

IC aw so I'm not just special then Thank you for that, I have been scratching my head over it lately! They have both had phases of preferring one or the other, but never as extreme as this.

Women make the majority of decisions on childcare even where men are not absent fathers.

So it doesn't tally that women making the majority of decisions on childcare is harmful to children.

Also can we please remember that the main reason why outcomes are worse for children where men aren't around, is generally beacuse they take their income with them.

Where women are on their own with a good income, the outcomes for their children are exactly the same as they are for those children with both mother and father around.

I'm aware the discussion has moved on but I just wanted to say that I agree completely with inmaculadaconcepcion

This is of course my role as the hands-on, supportive and yet deferential DH that she's espoused, but happily it also happens to my position on the matter too!

OK, I'll spell it out.

Excluding men from childcare is more likely to make them become absent fathers.

Having absent fathers harms children.

Therefore excluding men from childcare harms children.

Clearly, that is the simplified version....;)

And, before anyone jumps down my throat, if you want my more sophisticated view (including my own early experience with my babies and dh) please refer to my earlier posting. :)

I have 2 children with dh - ds 6yo and dd 7month old

When ds was born me and dh were living apart for the first 9 months. Ds was bf. I took on the primary carer role and made basically all of the decisions. Even when we moved back in with dh (we didn't split up - it was quite complicated) he was still working more than me, and although he was looking after ds on his days off I generally still made decisions about everything. When ds was first born I was very protective over him and resented dh doing anything. Plus dh not being involved and not living with us became distant and wouldn't do anything - the situations fed each other.

When dd was born (and throughout my pregnancy) I was ill and dh (not working) was taking on a caring role for me as well as looking after ds. DD was/is ff. At the beginning we shared the care to a certain extent (doing night feeds etc was all shared) but I returned back to work early adn dh took on the primary carers role for both the children (which he was basically doing anyway). As a result dh takes on most of the (everyday) decisions concerning the children. However I still have more of a say than he did with ds at first. Maybe because I am used to making the decisions and dh is used to having me to rely on to make them. But we do discuss stuff more than we did with ds.

SQ I've seen various threads on MN where mums are trying hard not to take it personally because their DC seems to prefer their dad (boys or girls) so it happens both ways. I think it's sometimes a phase and sometimes a child is naturally more drawn to one parent than another....

As you were

I find that sort of thing bizarre, hobbit. I've not heard anyone say it, personally, but this area seems to be very heavy with childcare being shared out. It's the norm to see dads, grannies and grand-dads dropping off at nursery and hanging out at toddler groups. I understand that this is unusual.

I do think that where women do the majority of the care then the final word falls to them, surely?

I'd like to add that it can be difficult for a Dad with a baby - because he is often seen to be naturally less competent.

My DH was made redundant just before DS's birth and so we got to share that initial bonding and childcare. DH's now a SAHD and an excellent one but he gets annoyed because he's constantly treated a bit like a bumbling dad when he's out and about.

I saw this first hand when I was in the hospital for a spell. All the nurses were terribly concerned about this poor child left home with his father and kept asking if DH knew how to do basic stuff like nappy changing and remembering to feed him.
I only stopped getting hassled about it when I finally gave up on trying to convince them he knew what he was doing and lied and said my SIL was going to help despite the fact she has no childcare experience.
Apparently having any other woman involved is better than a doting parent if he's male

Can you tell this really annoyed me?

The thing I have found strange with all of this, is that the children seem to have their own views on these matters

DH works shifts and is around an awful lot. He managed 4 weeks off after each baby (we have two girls) and was there most mornings or afternoons after that because of his work. Very hands on - for eg since I went back to work after DD2 he has been doing the night shifts for the baby. Nappies, feeding, you name it, the works. I would say we are pretty much 50/50 and he is loving, affectionate etc etc etc. Plus I am not a very "babies" person - I am better with older children - he is really good at the whole baby thing. I did BF for quite a while, but really I feel it's as equal as you can get.

So why on earth has my older DD (3.5) started to become so overtly mummy-orientated? I would have hoped that DH and I would be the same in her eyes - but no it's got to be mummy. Where does it come from? It has me most confused. DH and my mum say "there's just something special about mummies". Is there? What? I know it sounds odd but this has me genuinely

Please don't all jump on me that's a very honest post!

So on the OP - I think that in individual relationships it's great (obviously) if there is a genuine partnership going on when it comes to childcare. On the overview of the situation though I have a lot of sympathy for the view that women have so little which is "theirs" then if you take away their babies (not literally!) then what have they got? For eg on this point concerns have been raised about sharing mat leave out - again on an individual level I think it's great but I can understand the objections very easily.

Sadly I doubt the research available is sufficient to establish it one way or the other at this point.

But let's not get derailed. I am not having a go at single/gay parents, or anyone else outside the traditional setup in any way.

The thread was about fathers who are present, and whether the woman's right to decide about her children trumps his right to be more actively involved.

Fathers who are less actively involved are more likely to become absent fathers too.

In that case, I do think there is evidence that the 'woman's right to decide on the children' above all viewpoint does itself a disservice, for the reasons mentioned before.

So, it is not only an equality thing that it is better if fathers are more involved, it is also in the greater interests of women too.

Interaction with positive male role models benefit boys a lot they don't always have to be the father but there isn't many men invovled in areas with young children so exposure to positive male influences are pretty limited.

Absolutely. In fact a very experienced psychologist I know always rabbits on about how the optimal setup is for children to have two distinct adults with primary responsibility, but that exactly who they are is pretty much irrelevant. It could be a gay couple of either sex, a parent and a grandparent or whatever.

But the dynamic of having two distinct roles that the children can relate to seems to be very important.

And, politically incorrect though this may be - my sister (who is in a relationship with a woman) rolls her eyes at me when I say this - I think children benefit from exposure to adults of the same sex as them.

Well most of the decisions on parenting in our house are mutually agreed. But then we don't follow a particular parenting method. As I do the majority of the childcare DP doesn't impose any 'rules' (can't think of a better word). So most of the decisions are ultimately made by me, as DP is aware that I'm the one doing most of the work he feels it's my choice as to how I go about it (obviously barring things like physical discipline)

However, just because I make most of the choices in how to do things like weaning, when to stop BF etc does not mean I don't think he's competent to look after our children. In fact he is brilliant with our kids, he just doesn't interfere with my decision making process. I sometimes will discuss issues with him and get feedback on his views if there's something I'm struggling with. It works for us.

Oh and that thread earlier was one where he was saying she should stop breastfeeding and so we had some people saying 'it's his baby too he should have a say'. I think it's not on for men to dictate to their partners how baby should be fed. THey can give their opinions but they cannot make the decision.

www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/usermanuals/fatherhood/chaptertwo.cfm

An overview of some of the research.