Dads and babies

"Look my whole point has been on this thread that you can't have it both ways. You can't have men do a fair share of the childcare/domestic work (which they should be doing) yet at the same time deny them equal decision making rights."

But who is arguing for that?

As Engelhardt said eons ago, where equal parenting is appropriate, it's already happening.

Yeah I do understand they happen SQ but it is not by far what all men or even most men do ime. I think as well sometimes a woman brings it on to herself. I know someone who is 6 months in to a relationship but already does all housework, cooks every night as well as full time work or study. She then constantly moans about it. If she is 6 months and she feels this way what will she be like in ten years. It is obvious to me when she has kids that it will get worse as she has started off like this.

I dont know why some women do it to themselves tbh. All of the ones that are in situations like this with kids were exactly the same pre kids when they were just living together. They are usually doormats who put up with all types of stuff already. I know someone who has to come in from drinking and pretend not to be drunk and get up in the morning and make him a fried breakfast! (they have no kids but she says she does it cause otherwise he will be moody wtf?) From an outsider it always seems obvious to me and I think why does she put up with it?

My husband definitely never had me doing that before kids that was for sure and he doesnt get it after kids! We discussed our expectations at length even as teenagers. I told him if you want a housewifey type dont marry me! That would be understatement of the year If he expected me to do everything after kids I would kick him out.

IC - It sounds like you have a lovely husband who is hands on already.

'Look my whole point has been on this thread that you can't have it both ways. You can't have men do a fair share of the childcare/domestic work (which they should be doing) yet at the same time deny them equal decision making rights.'

Agreed. I expect my husband to do as much as me with our daughter. I am lucky I married a man who is more than happy to do this and revels in it. I dont understand how people can say my decision goes cause I am the mum but then want a man to try and do things with the kids. No wonder they dont do it as they probably feel like if they got involved their efforts/opinions will be belittled.

noddle but you do understand that these things do happen? And that there is therefore a need to discuss these things? Your social circle and way of doing things is not replicated in every household across teh UK, some people have quite different experiences?

MrIC I see your point but I think it has to stem from changes in maternity/paternity leave. While things are as they are, the default setting is some kind of weirdy 1950s idea. While many couples like noodle and her friends manage to even that up in their relationships, for many it's a step into an automatic old-fashioned way of being where the woman takes responsibility for everything as she is simply the one who is there. Not much point in handing lots of responsibility over to a person who isn't in the house to actually do anything IYSWIM.

So, noodle, where can the rest of us buy tickets to your world?!

SQ that would definitely not happen with my group of friends! The men always offer to take the children whilst the women eat/drink and they take it in turns.

I am starting to be very glad of my social circle after reading this. I am often seen at bbqs, parties with the kids drinking with the girls whilst the dads do the childcare. It is often the my girlie group leave the men after the bbq, social gathering with the kids and go clubbing and we leave the dads in with the kids nearly every weekend.

"But even where he doesn't and is doing the day to day stuff, she is still doing the planning and thinking part of the work, which AFAIC is the most important part in a sense - one of the things whcih makes me v. angry is the concept of a man who says "tell me exactly what housework you want me to do and I'll do it" (in other words, it's not my job to think about it, but look what a good husband I am, I'm doing what yhou tell me, I deserve credit for this, give me a blow job...) The probelm with this, is that if women don't think about it and take that control about it, they fear it won't get done. So how can that be resolved?"

right, briefly, Herbex (because I've got to feed and then bathe DD, before cooking for DW and I - because I'm planning ahead) this state of affairs will continue until women stand up and say "why should I have to tell you? it's your responsibility as much as mine. you make a decision and then be prepared to live with the consequences and not bitch about it."

Look my whole point has been on this thread that you can't have it both ways. You can't have men do a fair share of the childcare/domestic work (which they should be doing) yet at the same time deny them equal decision making rights. Because it sounds like you just want us to be some kind of telepathic batman (in the military sense) anticipating and doing things precisely how our commanding officers partners want it done, when they want it done. That's probably a nice proposal for some, but I can't see it catching on!

I agree with IC my husband often want to both do it. We both bathe my daughter together, sleep with her often at night and do the story. When he is not at work we both do the bedtime routine together and all get in the bed to ready the story but we are proabably a bit cheesy as my daughter is 3!

We decided on how many children we wanted and their names when we were 18 though so I think we have been broody all our lives!

I have been to BBQs where the men have all stood around drinking lager and the women have all chased after the children. Where the men have sat and relaxed in the sun with their food and the women have had theirs go cold as they try to juggle multiple toddlers and babies. It does happen.

In our relationship it's more likely to be the other way around but that's us! I don't think I've ever been to a BBQ where the women all sat around boozing and smoking and the majority of men stuck to apple juice and let their food get cold...

This stuff does happen. Or am I in a parallel universe?

Very true SQ - it's about who should have the right to make decisions, whether a mother should have the ultimate say or not....

Sorry just read your comment Sardine Queen - No sorry didnt mean IC said that. I meant that as a general comment. I think it is societys view that men will struggle more so their opinions might not be as valid. I dont believe that though it comes down to experience with children, the parents personalities, patience levels, stresses on that particular day etc.

I know I as a mother I dont always know best. I maybe do sometimes but I dont exactly know everything instinctively and thats comes from being a mum, having a degree in Childhood Studies and a background in working with children for a few years. I still dont always know everything and I dont think anyone does. That is why I value my husbands opinion as much as my own.

There are subjects that it is useful to have opinions on from other sources such as the father because they make you look at things in a different way.

I just find it surprising that someone is saying "men aren't naturally crap with children"as if in argument against posts saying that, when I don't think that has been suggested on the thread - in this topic it doesn't really happen that people say that one sex or the other is better/worse at a task because of their sex - I mean that's anathema to the whole topic surely!

Ha ha ha, funnily enough SQ, DH and I had a disagreement only last night because he said he felt he wasn't doing enough and offered to "do" DD's breakfast a few days a weeks and let me lie-in, whereas I was a bit defensive because while I'm more than happy for him to do all manner of childcare, getting DD up and "doing" her breakfast is one of my favourite bits...
I think, like noodle and her DH, we agreed we would both do breakfast if we so wished, as DH also enjoys that first contact with DD upon waking up...

"Surely they want to see their kids?"

Yes of course they do, but they want to see them when their nappies have been changed, they've eaten and played and are ready to listen calmly to a story and snuggle down all nice and cosy with no tantrums and no problems.

In other words, they want to see them without doing the work required to make them acceptable company.

That is why I cant stand it when people who hold the view he is a man he wont be as good a parent, wont be as hands on etc.

My husband was 23 when our daughter was born. There isnt anything I wouldnt trust him to do as well, and in some areas better (and my job is working with children). He is used to children and he found the trannsition to parenting easier than some mums I know.

"Its not as clear cut as men struggle more because they are men and women just instinctively know what to do imo"

Has IC said that? I didn't see that in her post.

On getting out of childcare, most people I know are happy for someone else to take over sothey can slope off, I thought that was quite normal!

I agree with that, noodle. I think very little of modern mothering is "instinctive" - very little of modern "parenting", in fact. You would think that keeping a baby warm (but not too warm), fed, clean and loved would be fairly basic, but I think there are a lot of health professionals and people from social services who would tell you it's shocking how many people - including mothers - don't even have those instincts...

Sardinequeen - No I dont know anyone that would stay late in order to get out of childcare. Surely they want to see their kids?

I am lucky I live in an area that it is just as normal to see men out with their kids frequently (comes from being in an area where work isnt always of normal standard hours).

I work and have kids but I would never stay at work in order to get out of doing stuff with them mundane or not. I know my husband defnitely would take a very dim view on someone who did that to. Its not something I have encountered in RL, but you are right it could be my area.

Immaculdaconception - I think if a man is used to changing nappies, lots of hands on childcare etc before having kids, used to looking after kids on their own for prolonged periods of time/overnight then obviously its not going to be as steep a learning curve when they have their own child. Its not as clear cut as men struggle more because they are men and women just instinctively know what to do imo

Yes you did explain it better this time MrIC but I have another problem with this:

"Therefore, to make us (men) take that responsibility, women will have to relinquish some of their control over childcare."

One of the problems with that, is that women fear if they do that, their babies will die.

Not a totally flippant comment btw. There is some kind of very strange process whihc lots of couples go through when the first baby comes along, where the mother takes control because she is BF and she has carried and born the baby and the dad steps back, largely because he has to go back to work so soon. But even where he doesn't and is doing the day to day stuff, she is still doing the planning and thinking part of the work, which AFAIC is the most important part in a sense - one of the things whcih makes me v. angry is the concept of a man who says "tell me exactly what housework you want me to do and I'll do it" (in other words, it's not my job to think about it, but look what a good husband I am, I'm doing what yhou tell me, I deserve credit for this, give me a blow job...) The probelm with this, is that if women don't think about it and take that control about it, they fear it won't get done. So how can that be resolved?

Oh I only just saw that thing about people who want to work obviously being incompatible with having children.

Children aren't small forever though, many people come into it when the children get older. I don't think finding babies and small children frustrating should be a taboo TBH, and I certainly don't agree with the view that people who find small children hard work shouldn't be having children.

It must be happening somewhere, noodle, otherwise what it the point of this thread? It may be that your experience and my experience are not the exact experience of all women with children in the UK.

Interested in your assertion that it's only career type men who are happy to be "excluded" from childcare. I know plenty of people (men and women) who will dodge out of childcare tasks if they can get away with it - they're not all career type people - it's human nature surely!

To be fair, noodle, I think a lot of career-orientated people also want children. And I think a lot of people aren't clued up about parenting because that's the way our society is set up, not because they aren't "parental" per se.

I had never changed a nappy before I had DD at the age of 39. But I learned very quickly and don't feel I've struggled particularly, despite a lack of "practice". In the past I was what you describe as a "career-type woman", but I don't feel that's hampered my ability to move into motherhood.

I think it is entirely acceptable nowadays for a couple not to want children. I know several who have chosen to remain childless and they don't seem to get any stick about that.

'IME quite a lot of men are quite cheerful to be excluded from childcare. Men openly saying they stay late at the office so that they miss the frantic bit and just roll in for the nice bit of bedtime, that sort of thing.'

This only happens with career type men. Same as career type women who dont need to work but do because they get frustrated at home and need to get out of the home. Those types of people both men and women are not particularly maternal/paternal and thats why they struggle more. I think it should be more acceptable in society to say that they dont want children rather than them going along with it as its the done thing.

That is certainly not what most men I know do. Most I know look after their kids, do loads of childcare, drop off to nursery and are very hands on and visible both at my nursery and out and about in the day.