Belly dancing

If you read the book SGM recommended, make sure you also tackle the one written to refute his argument, Hitler's Willing Executioners by Daniel Goldhagen.

thanks Goblin .

dittany - i don't normally "do" apologies (prefer to believe that explanation should suffice) but. I am sorry that i misinterpreted your comments and i'm sorry i upset you.

thanks, SGM i might look at that.
(btw, i was imagining soliders from the crusade period, being 's as that was the original argument - the men in there were brainwashed by the church, mainly, and were largely uneducated, and of course, were under the control of their "masters", so did as they were told. They were led from a young age to be servile, and that's brainwashing, too)

She got it wrong.
If she's apologised and backed down, then the thread might have moved on.
Some people need a proper apology rather than a 'it was my opinion and it differs from yours, and that's OK' or they find it difficult to accept that it wasn't a personal and vindictive attack on an individual poster.

In order to destroy the enemy, you first make them 'other' so that the common links between you are broken.
Then it's easier to excuse what you do, to yourself and others. Acting in a pack is also an effective method to dehumanise the individuals and fuse them into an aggressive unit.

that was the words i used - i didn't say that you personally wanted to go round killing, raping and torturing people until they agreed with what you stood for.

what i said was that it's never a good plan to wage war to make people see your POV.
and i stand by that.

(i'm still here )
SGM "I think you are confusing child soldiers with adults. 5 year olds kidnapped from their families by rebel groups tortured and violated until they learn gang-rape as a bonding activity and reward are nit the same as adult soldiers who commit rape.

Child soldiers are themselves victims of misogynistic regimes. Preventing them from being tortured in the first place would decrease rape.

Adult soldiers do it because they can. Because they want to."

not confusing - keeping both groups in separate compartments in my own head and reasoning.
am thinking of the ones that were brainwashed and tortured - not just as child soldiers, but men who were forced into war, men who were goaded and ridiculed until they did what they "were supposed to do"

Are we doing feminism wrong again?

nobody is picking you apart are they? You are free to defend what you said, or not

and i wasn't making excuses for soldiers who torture and rape women and children.

i was making excuses for the boys who were forced to go to war to kill.
that's a completely different kettle of fish.

Not at all unreasonable Dittany, did I say so?
As a historian, I'm well aware of the atrocities done in God's name, and as a human being I'm horrified by the continuing abuses of children, women and minorities across the world.

that's not quite the same thing as someone twisting your words of course

am trying to reread the exchange between dittany and nickelbabyhatcher

dittany - i'm not applying it to you!
i'm applying it as a general obvservation of the anger that feminists seem to have.

yes, we have a damn right to be angry, but i don't see why picking me aprat is a good thing!
i don't see how shouting down a woman on a feminist board is going to help the feminist cause.

fuck it, you're all mad.
i'm never going to enter into this section again.

'of course people are angry but you don't have to feel accused or aggrieved if someone else articulates an opposing point of view more forcefully than you expected

it's good to be challenged, and the very very black and white arguments are incredibly seductive and thought provoking but they are ultimately just that, arguments, not an assault on you personally'

I agree MI, and that's always the spirit in which I read posts, or have discussions on emotive subjects in RL.

I think if you post here, you either have to be prepared to have robust arguments discussions, or learn to apologise profusely and on many levels when the Alpha females approach.
Or dip in and out to see how the wind is blowing and decide whether to set sail or just watch the hardy types from the sidelines.
Don't get upset, it's an exchange of opinions that differ is all, nothing that should damage your sense of self-worth.

and its not changing at all, look at DRC for example!

of course people are angry but you don't have to feel accused or aggrieved if someone else articulates an opposing point of view more forcefully than you expected

it's good to be challenged, and the very very black and white arguments are incredibly seductive and thought provoking but they are ultimately just that, arguments, not an assault on you personally

you are making excuses for those soldiers by the way