Belly dancing

Speedy sums it up for me too. Dancing enables me to enjoy and take delight in what my body can do.
I could do physical exercise instead - for ten years I did hard physical work (worked in agriculture, in a very male dominated sector - I know all about that struggle) - it is categorically not the same thing. Rowing might enable you to delight in your body Dittany, but it wouldn't me.
Interestingly though, Tribal bellydance does build up much greater upper body strength. 'Tis very, very hard work. Love it .

Madwoman - that sounds horrible. I wouldn't even consider dancing in that situation. It's something I do for me, with my friends, on my terms.

In fact many of us who dance are actually quite reticent about it, just because of the reaction it gets from men. I tell my female friends about it when I know them well enough for them to know I'm not a wannabe-stripper.

I am physically strong/ sporty.....but dancing and feeling sensual are something different to me as well.

One point I was going to make earlier but feels relevant now is...I don't think female sensuality is valued at all. Female sexualisation and objectification...definitely over valued and over hyped. But an appreciation of feeling sensual in our own skin, just as we are....not so much. And this is what I like about the female centered aspects of belly dancing....

I like to dance, I don't enjoy other forms of exercise. I'm not accepting that dance can or should be substituted with rowing, martial arts or whatever. I actually feel a bit annoyed that anyone would suggest that. Dance is special, like singing.

Re lifting a heavy boat over my head... it depends on how heavy "heavy" is but, as Egyptian dance doesn't particularly develop great strength in the arm muscles, I probably couldn't through that activity alone. However, I'm pretty damn strong anyway, and have lifted old-fashioned 1970s kayaks, enraged German Shepherds, garden sheds and solid wood 4' x 6' bookcases, so I would probably have been able to give it a damn good go.

My dancing was for joy in music and movement, in mastering complex movements, in feeling my muscles isolating and flowing, in occupying space in new ways. I'm also all for telling people's expectations of pleasure to go stuff themselves.

oo, I don't know that you can dismiss rowing so easily Dittany - have you seen those all in one lycra body suits they wear these days?

David, you clearly know nothing about figurative art. Or women.

Dittany, whether sensuality is under- or overvalued in women is a subjective thing. It doesn't come naturally to me.

I don't

not at all David - artists use subjects in their painting of portraits, not objects. And they glorify their subjects with their art, not denigrate.

Make-up - that is an enhancement of the features already there (in most cases).

Your reasoning is faulty there.

No, you don't need to belly-dance to value and enjoy your body, and I don't see anyone suggesting that you do, just as you don't need to row in order to do that. They're simply two of many different ways of achieving those results.

I took Egyptian dance classes for two years and at the end of the time I was, without doubt, in the best physical shape I've ever been in. I loved the music, was completely covered all the time (entirely my choice), hardly ever danced in front of anyone outside of the group, had a brilliant time and developed great strength, co-ordination, muscle awareness and stamina. I don't fancy rowing :)

SpeedyGonzalez You could argue that an artist treats a person like an object when they paint a portrait. Or that a woman treats herself like an object whenever she puts on make up.

So maybe it's a more complex issue than you think.

And dittany I'm raising the question because I am seriously interested in it. I realise the concept is central to feminism but it also generates disagreement between feminists. I support feminism by making an honest attempt to understand issues like this.

Dittany, sensuality is one aspect of the body. Strength is another - and for me as a naturally sporty person, that is an aspect which I've never had trouble valuing and enjoying. Which is one reason why I plan to train in Kung-Fu! ('tis true!)

Hi thumbs!!!

David, are you joking? 'What's wrong with treating a person like an object? Can you not work it out for yourself?

hey Speeedy!! Belly dancing is fab, isn't it? I loved it - did it while I was pg the first time for a bit until my ligaments started to protest under the strain

even if you take the objectification out of it, it's unprofessional to expect the women in the scenario given to change from their work role, which is how their male colleagues see them and should continue to see them, into a show girl of whatever type.

Perhaps the men should have been encouraged to join in the dance instead - see how they liked it.

Women have a hard enough time in male-dominated work environments without having their professional "hat" removed from them by their male colleagues.

Fascinating thread. I have taken belly dancing lessons, and found it of sone help during labour.

It's interesting to read about its origins here - I too believed it was originally developed by women for women.

It is a beautiful and sensuous dance, which I found (as someone who's not naturally body-confident) that it helped me to value and enjoy the body that I have rather than hanker after the body I might wish I had.

interesting point, david. but tbh anything that encourages male co-workers to believe that their female colleagues should strip off and jiggle for their benefit (because that's wot wimmin are for ,innit) isn't something i can get my head around, contextually. i'm deeply unhappy to be objectified in that context. if i was being objectified based on my work achievements rather than how much of a boner i could give some pissed up middle manager, i might be a bit happier.

This may be heretical but I would question whether 'objectification' is actually the most important issue with lapdancing. The case against lapdancing has been built mainly on the testimony of women who took part of it & reported the sordid realities and the abuse they suffered. Nothing equivalent has happened with belly dancing and somehow I doubt if it will.

Watch out for my thread 'What's wrong with objectification?' - coming soon

"Belly dancing" actually covers a whole range of styles of dance: Baladi = folk dance; Raqs Sharqi = classical dance etc. The dance can be done in a huge variety of costumes including full galabea. The sleazy style costume is thought to have originated in 1950s hollywood movies - in fact the jewel in the bellybutton was there to hide the navel, considered to risque for the 1950s.

Men also "belly dance", in fact it was seeing two men and a woman doing an impromptu dance together that inspired me to take up classes. Male dancers can be very masculine and aggressive - focussing on the upper body, or can be very camp - and some male belly dancers dance in drag.

Saying all belly dancing is sleazy is writing off a hugely rich and diverse art form.