How might it change our whole society if both men and women were equally responsible for...

Well the problem with that darlene is that is that it implies everyone feels the same way/wants the same thing or that people who are more flexible will be thinking of part time people's options which they won't be.

Also to progress in a firm/business etc you will be required to put more hours in as the higher up you go the more is expected of you and the more they frown on people being committed to other things as the firm and employees rely on you more.

"from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked"

The answer to that is for everyone to have their dcs younger so there are no childless employees to compete with.

What about a 6day working week with each partner wirking 3 days?

In the end any organisation will pay as much or as little as they need to in order to get the job done.

If they have one set of childless employees who are flexible, willing and able to do unpaid overtime to further their careers and never ask for time off at short notice and another set that have children and are therefore less flexible and often ask for time off at short notice - well guess which set they will prefer to employ if pay level is the same.

He who pays the piper ....... .

I would also say that I am still financially reliant on dh. I work almost as many hours as he does, and bring in less than a third of the household income. We are equally qualified and the same age. It's mostly to do with the sectors we work in.

We have the 'ideal' of both working part time and sharing childcare. Honestly, it's been really hellish and I am glad it's coming to an end (our current arrangement is anyway, of us both working 3 days. Towards the end of the year dh is moving to 4 days and I am hoping to drop to 2, but will also be studying part-time, 1 day pw contact and I've no idea how much study).

This is because we both have the types of jobs where you are expected to deliver full-time results on part-time hours. DH in particular takes on a lot of extras, because they are paid and we don't have the luxury of saying no, and it's good for his career - we both still want careers. His has been progressing. Mine has been coasting which does worry me.

I try all the time to appreciate what we have and on the whole I am really happy we've done this in the pre-school years but it has been extremely tough. Perhaps that's because our situation isn't the norm and there isn't the support, I don't know.

a1b2 - Well I would say I didnt take a gap cause I wanted to study but I did it for the student loans! We couldnt get any help with housing so didnt really have a choice. It worked out well in the end though but I definitely think maternity leave is very important for women to stop having to think about work/studying and just enjoy bonding with your baby after all of having gone through pregnancy/birth.

'
For thousands of years there have been lots of men who would have chosen not to work, or to work in different careers but society said they had to support their families so they did. Some of these men made career limiting decisions in order to walk a fine line between providing financial support and still seeing their families - my father being one of them - but the responsibility sat squarely on their shoulders. '

Also this blingloving shows we are worlds apart. I have never known it to be a mans responsibility just to work. I suppose I do live a life where we do share it more and agree with that. I dont agree with either men or women having kids if they do long hours out of the home. Its not fair on the children and I really dont understand why any mum or dad would want to do that.

That's amazingingly admirable noodle! It certainly must have been a mental strain. I found it hard to string a sentence together and argue coherently for much longer than 10 days. Would never have managed essays and studying.

I agree with MrIC. Of course choice is an element and perhaps even if things did change, not that many families would shift in setup. But I think it would change things - things seem to be changing already, from what I read on mumsnet etc. Just very slowly.

I think at the moment the assumption is that the woman will stay at home so the decisions re part time/full time/sahm are all made with this assumption in mind and sometimes you just don't stop to think about what would actually work best for your family.

I don't think it should be fixed 'to avoid arguments' - you need to be able to compromise, as a couple, and different people will want different things.

Sorry A1b2 I was at uni so had to go straight back in to classes and essays didnt get any time off. It was stressful and a mental strain but I am TTCing now so cant wait till I get my time off!

I wouldnt describe myself as a feminist. I just love being with kids. I work with kids and a big family person. (Cant afford to stay at home though). My husband only does 4 days a week as he wants to be at home to. I am live to work not work to live type.

I work 25 hours a week as it is. I also do 24/7 childcare with my daughter as I am lucky to take her to work with me.

My husband didnt work for 4 months when we had our first. We were both at uni (didnt get a break from uni and was a mental strain but didnt do any paid work) Neither of us do more work than we have to.

I definitely dont think my husband will ever be a person who has to do more work than he to (ROFL at that idea) He is a minimum wage lad working at a warehouse. All depends if you what type of family you are. I also think we are talking about complete different ends of the class spectrum. Here no one works cause they are 'career' people. They just do it to eat and doss around as much as they can! I do get equal pay to everyone here as all the men I know and all the women I know are on minimum wage! Its not an issue that I worry about tbh as its irrelevant to my life.

yes, you have earned your maternity leave noodle69! Isn't it illegal (in a protect the mother kind of way, not blaming you), to go back to work before 2 weeks after birth for office workers, and before 6 weeks for manual workers? It must have been very hard, and worn you out going back so soon. (I understand you needed to).

Also depends though if men in the UK would want take leave/flex time en masse and if women also want to do the same because that is really only the way I could see it working. I know many couples that prefer the man in their relationship to do more hours if many men do not take that option then those that do will only end up penalising themselves.

"I see it as I gave birth to them that gives me more of aright to doss around more with the kids. Nobody in their right mind is going to choose working over staying at home with the kids. I think it would cause too much resentment. I definitely wouldnt want things to change."

This actually makes me sad. I will go back to work after 6 months and DH will become the SAHP as I earn significantly more than him. Truthfully, I'd love to take a bit more time, but I don't feel I can demand equal pay, equal treatment at work etc etc if I get all resentful because I hvae to go back to work.

For thousands of years there have been lots of men who would have chosen not to work, or to work in different careers but society said they had to support their families so they did. Some of these men made career limiting decisions in order to walk a fine line between providing financial support and still seeing their families - my father being one of them - but the responsibility sat squarely on their shoulders.

I would love the system to be a bit more flexible. Clearly, in our situation, it would make little difference in light of difference in pay but then at least DH would get something for the first few months he's at home with DC while I'm back at work.

I believe that to be a feminist, you have to accept that with increased benefits and a cessation of being treated like a secondary citizen, you also have to step up to the different responsibilities that men have been taking for years.

Just worked out on a convertor you dont get much less than us and we have both people working. Wish I lived in Spain :(

I will say I am very lucky though as my daughter is allowed to come to work with me so we dont ever have to be apart so I get the SAHM thing but still keep a roof over my head.

That a high wage lol. We are both on the minimum wage and have a mortgage down South. We get no help except for childcare. We still are in a small flat and can never afford a house. My husbands take home pay is £13k (about 880 a month) and our mortgage on a pokey flat is £625.

I definitely dont think we can modify our expectations anymore lol!!!

In the book (sounds good, must read it) people were hermaphrodites, so could all be pregnant and give birth. But in life, only women are pregnant and give birth. So men being able to take leave on an equal footing to women would not make things equal. It could backfire on women. We could be expected to go back to work so the man can stay at home on paternity leave, rather than just have the chance to. (I know pregnancy is not an illness, but it does leave women needing to recover physically, and not men. Plus breastfeeding when working, especially in the early months, is not easy for women and does not effect men)

It could backfire on men too, in the way Beenbeta says.

noodle69 I earn ?1200 per month (10 months of the year only) which covers all 3 of us. We don't receive any benefits.

We're not in debt and we don't want for anything. It's just a case of modifying your expectations and living within your means.

Having an option doesn't entail you have to make use of it - men should have equal rights to share parental leave as women, so that women who choose to continue with their careers can do so (which there is nothing wrong with!!). It doesn't mean they have to.

I agree that as a result the pressure currently put on women who want to have families would be transferred to men..... but what would happen is those people would just not have kids and eventually the careerist gene would die out!
After all, just how much money do you need to earn to compensate from having missed out on spending time with your kids as they grow up? For me, there's no amount of money....

We both work you have to be pretty rich to live off one salary. I do less hours though and want to keep it that way. Neither of us have ever stayed at home and I only had 10 days maternity leave last time. Its what I had to do at the time. This time round though I definitely want the maternity leave I have earnt it!

I don't see a big demand either

True enough, BB, but there are huge numbers of parents, including those who own and manage these firms so if it became a cultural norm that both parents can take leave, do you think perhaps some of those attitudes might change?

DH and I both worked for the same firm when I got pregnant. We were on the same salary and almost certainly could have elected to do a job share post DC if we had both wanted to. Our boss is a father himself and very sympathetic - as he was from the moment I told him I was pregnant and continues to be supportive ie giving DH the day off with no fuss when he needed to look after DD while I was in hospital. This is a small business, but our boss shows with the right mindset, it's perfectly possible to be flexible.

In answer to noodle I agree that many women will prefer to be SAHMs given the choice, but as you see above, DH and I had an equal opportunity to be SAHPs and although DH was more than happy to be a SAHD, he acquiesced to my own preference to be SAHM for the time being. We didn't fall out about it, just discussed what we wanted and came to an agreement.

So now we live on one salary and although we live in Spain where the cost of living is a bit less than in the UK, DH's salary is fairly modest even by Spanish terms. But we're not extravagant people and we're happy this way (DH's job has a 9-day fortnight with most of the office time done in the mid-afternoon - evening so he still gets to spend a lot of time with me and DD).

But yes, neither of us is currently paying into a pension and that is one aspect of the set-up that does concern me.

Surely this is about what people want to happen, rather than it won't work because it's not like it now.

If more women were high up in companies hopefully they wouldn't follow these unfamily friendly practices.

Saying this is the way it is, it can't change is a bit wet.

Saying I don't want it to change I'm happy the way it is, is a bit different.

And I don't see a big demand for change.

Equal rights to parental leave sounds like a great idea. It would mean there was no perceived disadvantage to employing women over men.

However, in practice what I think would happen is firms would just discriminate against parents (ie discriminate equally against fathers and mothers). In my experience of corporate life, firms took umbrage at anyone who expressed any need for a life outside the firm. The higher up the corporate ladder and the higher the pay the more this pressure to show loyalty and commitment was expected. If men had equal rigts to parental leave I think those men that took it would see their career suffer compared to men who didnt. The pressure would always be there for men not to take parental leave and for most couples the decision would still be for the mother to give up her career especially if she had already slipped behind the father in the pay scale.

This might be less so in the public sector and lower pay scale jobs but men who want to make it to the top of corporate life have to show a complete commitment to the firm. Anyone who refuses to work late, go away for weekend networking events, client dinners, etc, etc is marked out as 'not fully commited'. Men discriminate againt other men who are not part of their gang and lets face it the men at the top of corporate life tend to be the type that have a SAHM and woudl never consider taking time off themselves. Indeed I once got asked 'what is wrong with your wife' when I asked for flexible time to look after our DSs.

Having two parents trying to climb the corporate ladder is impossible in my view because firms will not accept the levelof flexibility required to allow it. I know a few 'power couples' where the man has taken a back seat to the woman's career. It is usually the other way round - but someone has to do it or the alternative is 24/7 nanny cover.

Truth is firms don't like employees who have commitments outside work. They dont want to give people flexible working patterns but they expect them to turn up whenever they demand it and stay late if necessary. The flexibility firms want is all one way traffic. Parents can't be flexible like that and accomodating them in the workforce is a pain in the neck as far as firms are concerned.

ithaka - not many people could afford that set up though