junior doctors ...

I'm not sure AyeRobot, I feel pretty ok about it sitting here, I'm trying to imagine how I'd react to her if one of my close family was being placed in her care and I'd just met her.

karmakameleon I think colourful coats bags and shoes you can get away with. I also think you can be a bit more daring as you get more talented and well known within your field. Probably as you get older as well.

Do people really care about the colour of a stethoscope? If she was using two yoghurt pots on a piece of string, then I might be worried.

I think she's great.

springbok, I don't think the whole environment should be about ribbing each other. If people are unhappy or uncorfortable at work, things need to change. There is a happy medium. We have fun at work, we enjoy each others company and we do take the piss out of each other. But it's always kind and if someone steps to far and the person on the receiving end doesn't think it's funny, it stops straight away. Which is as it should be.

Amanda, you're right, it is interesting what can be bright and coloured and what can't. I have a bright pink coat I wear to work. People see it all the time because we constantly walk between buildings. I've only ever had compliments about it but this thread has made me think maybe I'd better go for grey next time. I won't because hopefully I'll be over it by next winter when it's time to get new one, but it does make me feel a bit about my coat.

I also have a gold handbag. I bought for weekends but started using it for work. Again no one has ever said anything other than a compliment on it.

And I carry a Cath Kidson floral number to keep my gym kit, books etc in.

By all accounts I have committed professional suicide, but I think I'm doing ok.

Working in a hospital means working in a fairly male dominated workplace. Many female doctors struggle to get patients to remember we are doctors not nurses (no offense to nurses, but it is not what I am). Part of that is the way we dress and the way we introduce myself. "Suzi" doesn't convey the professional relationship well. That is why I always introduce myself as Dr Springbok, patients need to feel reassured that I am a professional and that they can trust in me. Yes clothes shouldn't matter but they do.

The whole environment is about ribbing each other. You can't have a thin skin about something like this.

I suppose what is interesting is what can be pink and what can't and what it is about pink that makes that the case. The tools of the trade - laptop, mobile phone, briefcase, handbag, calculator, stethoscope in this case, most certainly have to be black, grey, navy.

I've got plenty of pink shirts, I don't think pink looks unprofessional per se. Also although I don't have any novelty cufflinks, that's not for any particular reason. My colleague has some great ones in the shape of bicycles.

You're quite right about the gender/culture thing obviously, I'm thinking but I'm not sure how to say it better, I'm sure you know what I mean.

Haven't seen this episode, but - Medicine is inherently sexist. Every week I meet a patient who expects me to be a man, just from their clinic letter. It's better than it was 20 years ago when I started training but I still have to put up with casual sexism on a regular basis, from patients and colleagues. Fortunately, I love what I do and we are slowly reaching a point where you can be a relatively senior female doctor without having to act like a man but there is still a long way to go. I have to say that pink stethoscopes annoy me. It is a functional item. It should only come in black. It's not a toy or a decoration. But that's just my view, clearly there is a demand for these things!

In terms of bullying/sexism within the profession - well, there are certain things you can do to protect yourself without compromising your sense of self, but you largely just have to get on with things and prove yourself through your actions rather than your appearance. It's unfair but it's a fact of life. It will only change slowly, and it will only change if women hang in there and support each other, acting as quiet role models for those who are coming through behind them.

Amanda, you've just talked about how you wear "conservative, sensible suits in dark colours" and no "jewellery or fashion shoes". For yourself you don't seem to consider bright colours and fun jewellery as acceptable but it's ok for men you say?

Would a dark blue stethoscope be ok? Or a light blue one? Or green? Or purple? Or red? I've never checked to see what colour my doctors have used but guess they must come in the full range, not just black and pink. And someone (other than Suzi) must be buying all these colourful stethoscopes, else no one would make them.

Incidentally, last time I was in A&E, I noticed that crocs were very popular and they came in a variety of colours. I didn't see one person walk out complaining about the doctors' and nurses' shoes. I think they were all sick and waiting for treatment so had other things on their minds.

Btw gender issues are cultural ones, what is gender if it's not a cultural concept?

i thought the pink stethoscope was a bit of a bad move too - sort of like pink electric drills would appeal to women

Pink shirts or ties are absolutely fine, and fun cufflinks are also ok, they are part and parcel of conventional professional dress. Pink stethoscopes, however, are not part of conventional professional dress. It's not a gender issue, it's a cultural one.

Actually korma, pink clothes are fine IMO. A pink stethoscops would just look like a toy to me. I didn't even know they came in different colours!

I really am at the number of people who think wearing pink to work is unprofessional or inappropriate.

The men at my work often wear a pink shirts in the office. Some wear colourful ties and fun cufflinks. I can assure you it's not holding them back.

To me, turning up with a pink stethoscope for a female doctor is a bit akin to a male doctor turning up with a Ben10 stethoscope. It probably functions fine but looks like a toy! I like pink but wouldn't buy a pink ophthalmoscope even if they made them. When I was newly qualified, I looked very young for my age and some patients did question whether I was qualified so I did try to dress a bit older and a bit more conservatively.

Haven't see the show but do think the treatment of her sounds like bullying.

I simply wouldn't dream of going to work in anything other than conservative, sensible suits in dark colours. I don't wear jewellery or fashion shoes, I don't use a novelty pen, I project a professional image because it reassures my clients that they are dealing with someone who takes their problems seriously and can be trusted to deal with the important affairs of their businesses. I think junior doctors of either sex should be respected by their colleagues but guided in an appropriate and professional way to dress appropriately for the very serious job they do. If I was seriously ill I would not wish to be treated by someone who looked like she thought a stethoscope was a fashion statement.

I think research has shown that people do make first impressions, even when they think they don't. It's a thorny issue because views on appropriateness vary. If you are young, essentially still in training and in a post where it is important to inspire confidence in patients, then there is a lot to be said for presenting yourself so that the first impression reinforces competence - eye-catching non-standard equipment (for either sex) may not be helpful.

It is easier for men, as the "uniform" of the suit, with the permitted latitude in choice of tie, gives a readily understood code.

what I'd like to know is this: what if a male nurse turned up with a blue stethoscope and blue trainers would he be considered less caring?? Would he be judged on his choice of attire?

bugger I meant " I DONT think"

not sure if its that misogynistic any more.... I know men who have been bullied for taking time off and women who have been bullied for taking time off.

Both men and women find the transition from student to doctor tricky. People ( patients and colleagues) do judge you to some extent on how you dress.... and that means you have to dress more conservatively whilst at work. I dont think you do yourself any favours by having a pink stethoscope if you are already concerned that people wont take you seriously.

Obviously I do think that they should have taken the piss especially when she is so new to the job..

Medicine is quite a mysogynistic profession.

I know a doctor who was bullied at work for taking time off for a pregnancy-induced illness.

Thank you unrulysun.! I do like to think I'm totally right on this

In terms of the dynamics, bullying (by definition) will always be by a more powerful person over a less powerful one. Sometimes power will be due to seniority, maybe personality or something else specific to the individuals involved. Sometimes power will be obtained by being a member of a dominant group. Are you saying you think that if the power is obtained through being part of the dominant group it should be treated differently?

(I'm not sure what I think here, but I do think that rasict, sexist and homophobic aspects can be harder to prove. I can think of one guy I worked with who would shout at the women in the office and over the phone at staff in our Indian offices. Was he a bully? Absolutely. Was he sexist and racist? Most likely. Was the bullying sexist or racist in nature? Nothing I heard was so personally I don't think you can treat him more harshly for being a sexist or racist, IYSWIM.)

Karmakameleon I agree with everything you've said. Workplace bullying is horrible and it's up to supervisors to tackle it head on. I'd also say there's an additional need where someone in a powerful group is attacking someone in a less powerful group as in racist, sexist or homophobic bullying which it sounds like in this situation.

Aye I didn't mean that it is part of the job and has to be accepted, just that it is a deeply misogynistic culture and that I found battling against it constantly very, very draining.

The culture is changing slowly but I often get the feeling that unlike many other careers it is still very much an 'old boys club' and most of the women are as complicit as the men in maintaining the status quo.

I suppose the Bar is very similar...

The sttitudes do need to be confronted but it can be very lonely and feel like a constant uphill battle.

Personally I reckon Suzi isnt girlie.....ist the other female Doctor who I really like a lot...Catherine is it ?, now she looks so so young...about 16yrs old.
She does sound and look girlie, but such a lovely person....
She is lucky though looking so wonderfully young.....long may it last.
As for Alex, his eyelashes curl.......sweet !
alex