I've got quite a simple question that I just can't answer - why would a woman not be a feminist?

I already said twice Frosty that I keep encountering this response both on MN and in real life, in fact I predicted it would happen before seth even said anything as it's what always happens.

But Stewie, it's not that seth is otherwise occupied, she's actively decided not to engage with me. That's her choice of course.

Well yes, there are some people on that thread who've felt the need to burst in on a friendly, non-debating thread and rant about how disgusting body hair is.

But they're not the feminists, so they don't count as evidence that "feminist threads are rude and dismissive" etc.

Writer, lots of feminists on the resisting femininity thread agree with you and don't feel they want to try it, and nobody is judging them for that at all - I think that is why it's been recommended to you, as it's an example of a friendly and tolerant thread where nobody is being pointed at or judged.

Ok fair enough!

Lol I see I've cross posted with you seth and you've decided not to engage with me, what a surprise.

Albrecht the experiment was in Ireland where they wear blue and navy

Anyway...

Feminism is so varied - see the post above about pro/anti-abortion e.g. - that it does raise my hackles when people say 'Feminists all behave in X or Y manner'

Course they don't.

Well now you are engaging with me Seth so I'm happy :)
In other threads I've tried to discuss these things and I've been told to naff off or basically been told that I don't know what I'm talking about which is essentially naff off in not so many words.

Lol englebert but I don't think what I'm saying is tangential as the question is why would a woman not be a feminist and I'm explaining why I'm not a feminist.

No one called me a brainwashed idiot directly but that's how I was made to feel by lady of the manor's post, as if by recognising that parts of the patriarchy benefit me I am "thanking men." Also the resisting femininity thing is a tough one for me as I like being feminine (although I don't ever shave my legs). Argh I'm all tied up in knots and I'm confusing myself and that's what happens when I try to engage with feminism, it's feels really confusing.

Erm this IS tangential but don't the police wear black and white?

at Engelbert's example

actually you know what, fuck it, I'm NOT going to engage with WriterofDreams any more - new personal rule - I'm not going to engage with anyone whose claims about what feminists say are so far away from what I know they say.

my answer in future will be 'If you think this is what feminism says then you are wrong; if you genuinely want to know more, go and read The Equality Illusion, Reclaiming The F-Word or The Female Eunuch and if you have read those books and you still think feminism is saying you are brainwashed then I'm sorry, I can't help you.

ok Writer, I am finding that a really strange post because you want us to engage with you but you are putting forward a projection of what you think people have said to you rather than what they have actually said.

You want feminists to
'recognise the practical day-to-day difficulties that arise in challenging the society we have all grown up with and to see that roundly rejecting everything in current society isn't practical or desirable for many women.'

we do. have a look at the resisting femininity thread if you don't believe me.

I disagree very strongly indeed with 'questioning why someone is attached to things that they have always known and grown up with - such as the "Mrs" title - fails to recognise the reality of human psychology and actually damages the cause of feminism'; questioning is useful in my opinion. Questioning is not damaging, it is liberating. What you are basically doing there is telling people not to think.

I can't help feeling extremely exasperated by 'recognise that I've made my choices not because I'm a brainwashed idiot but because my society has shaped me that way' because that is exactly what feminism says and people on here say repeatedly; please link to the post where someone has called you a brainwashed idiot.

I see it as sneering seth, she said "Oh yes let us thank men..." That was in no way what I was saying. I was saying that I would like feminists to recognise the practical day-to-day difficulties that arise in challenging the society we have all grown up with and to see that roundly rejecting everything in current society isn't practical or desirable for many women. My view is that just because something come from the patriarchal society doesn't mean it's wrong and questioning why someone is attached to things that they have always known and grown up with - such as the "Mrs" title - fails to recognise the reality of human psychology and actually damages the cause of feminism.

I'll give you an analogous example - I once saw this ridiculous psychological experiment in which a person on a train was asked by a person in a blue uniform (without ID or insignia) to give up her seat. The fact that she did so without question was held up as evidence that we are too deferent to perceived authority. But in my view that is far too simplistic. We are all brought up to recognise and respect the blue uniform that police officers wear. It is conditioned into us (rightly or wrongly). To then point and judge because we respond to that conditioning is ridiculous and pointless. We need to recognise that people are shaped by the world they live in and respond accordingly. Pointing and judging and expecting everyone to go against their conditioning at the drop of a hat is unrealistic. Change must be brought about slowly and people who are resistant shouldn't be judged but should be engaged with in a compassionate and understanding way.

I recognise that some of my views are anti-feminist but rather than being sneered at I would rather than feminists try to engage with me in a real way and recognise that I've made my choices not because I'm a brainwashed idiot but because my society has shaped me that way and I want to fit in, like all humans do.

stubbornhubby - @ your daughter.

I'm not sure I would've called myself a feminist as a teenager, even in my 20s, despite having the attitude. Maybe she'll get in with the Wrong (Right) Crowd at university and end up running the Feminist Soc

I don't think that is sneering and judgemental, I'm wondering if we're talking about the same post.

Re it being RL feminists as well as on here, well it comes to the same thing doesn't it? I mean someone might think all the Tory voters they've met have been arses/all the Labour voters have been self-righteous prigs, but still believe in low/high taxation.

'I am a feminist but I don't like the feminists I have met' would be a perfectly logical position (though quite a surprising one).