I'm a feminist but...

This is a great thread.

Swimming and hairiness: I'm getting far more laissez-faire about my body hair when I go swimming, mostly because I forget to do it, and then go 'ah, fuck it, my legs will be underwater anyway and if anyone's staring at my pits or bikini line then that's their problem'

My life is already pretty non-comformist. I'm used to being out with my children during school hours and getting comments (nearly 100% positive, I have to say, but comments none-the-less); I'm used to them looking unkempt (or 'free range' I like to call it ); I'm used to breastfeeding in public...even a toddler .

I just think I've got to a point where I mostly really don't care what people think of me because if people think badly of me for not conforming to whatever stereotype they've found for me (like I am a hippy, woo non-vaccinator, but I let my kids watch tv and play on the computer and I don't wear tie-dye and floaty skirts), then that's their problem and I probably am not interested in the opinion of a bigotted twat like that anyway!

So I often wonder why I have such an issue with my hairy legs and armpits myself - I wish I could learn to love them hairy because I bloody hate shaving them!

And wrt careers - it's the desire to be 'successful' that is the issue, I think. Is it just money? Or is it the need to be recognised for an acheivement of some description? We mothers are not recognised for the incredible (IMO) achievement of growing a human being within our bodies, and then, if we breastfeed her, the fact we have continued to nourish her beyond birth. Good parents are not recognised for the valuable and immensely difficult and complicated work they do in bringing up children - all that happens is that shit parents get judged.

As a HEor, people often ask me if my children will do exams etc.; how will they get to university? I always say that I want them to measure their success by what they consider to important. IMO I am a very successful mother - I have, so far, acheived what I want in life. I am happy, I do good things that help people, I work hard bringing up my children. But that's not successful in the eyes of a patriarchal, capitalist society. I'm not a manager of a company, or earning million pound bonuses, or writing award-winning novels.

I'd like to see a world where success is measured by how happy and confident people are in their lives, rather than how much they earn or discover. Then we might see what is traditionally women's work being valued more.

I think the disquiet that I feel about the appearance/behaviour thing is that it seems that I have more chance of being taken seriously by the patriarchy when trying to challenge the behaviours that are expected of women if I comply with its norms - ie appearance.

Even as I might try to change things for women, I am still fighting for my place within, and acceptance by the thing I would like to change.

Whilst there is something to be said for the old maxim that the best/easiest way to change something is from within, it is telling that there are some fights that are harder to have than others.

I would find it much easier to confront a man in the street who had spouted some aggressive, sexist comment, than I would to walk down the same street in a skirt and hairy legs.

Is it that one of the hardest things to challenge is society's view of our own sexual attractiveness? Perhaps that is one of the hardest things to stick our heads above the parapet for- I know that it is for me.

Oh no, we're still on the Joy of Pubes

I am fairly ambivalent about leg shaving. Often I do. Often I don't. Same with armpits.

But pube shaving REALLY pisses me off. It is annoying. It is ITCHY. It is fucking ridiculous! Pube shaving gets my feminist goat more than any other thing (except maybe pop music). I take the expectation that I must shave my pubes VERY personally and I will not bloody well do it. We live in a hot country and swim most days. WHY, when all the men are happily clad in sensible, comfortable, modest, baggy shorts with a bit of decent sun cover, am I suppsed to wear a bra and fucking knickers?? That I am supposed to TAKE A RAZOR BLADE to my nethers in order to wear in a socially acceptable way.

Bugger that.

I wear baggy surf shorts and a rash vest.

It just makes me cross that this is the unquestioned norm. Men would never be expected to dress so unsuitably.

I started writing this post hours ago but keep getting caught up in children things so I expect the thread has veered off in a wildly different by now...

sethstarkadder - there are advantages to shortsightedness, aren't there? :)

I don't actually give a shit about strangers seeing me hairy (both legs and pubes) in the swimming pool, truly don't. DH and my children cope with my hairiness just fine so I won't bother about people I'll never see again. If they have an issue, it's theirs to deal with and I won't make it mine. I might give more of a shit if I were swimming with my friends actually, but I probably still wouldn't shave and I doubt they would stop being friends with me as my hairy legs and pubes do not make me a worse friend than if I were hair-free.

Even though I bake and knit, Daily Mail would probably loathe me for being hairy, so I guess that means I really am a feminist

my crochet skills are worse than the average man's.

think about it:

I have zero crochet skills.
a few men have some.
therefore the average man's crochet skills are slightly more than zero.

(only works if you use a mean for average, admittedly.)

You can only call yourself a feminist if your cupcakes/muffins/crochet/shaving skills etc are politically, socially and economically equal to a mans!!
I'd say most of mine are better!!

I go swimming with hairy bits.
The whole pube removal thing just annoys me too much, I mean how f*cking dare the patriarchy tell me there is something wrong with having pubes? How dare they?

I hate the way it looks if I 'trim' - I don't want stubble and I don't want nasty bumps from waxing, so I would rather weather a few nasty looks. Fortunately as I am short sighted and go swimming without glasses on I can't see whether people are looking at me or not

I must admit I have occasionally thought about getting a swimsuit cut lower in the legs but actual pube removal is a line in the sand I am no longer prepared to cross. I do shave my legs though.

(why have I hedged this post so much with excuses, 'I don't shave my pubes BUT'? )

I might worry about mine a bit more if i could see them

Ah but do you think breasts and pubes aren't valuable because they belong to women?

dittany This is a person question so feel free to ignore but what about going swimming?

I also am almost always in trousers or thick tights (its bloody cold round here) but swimming costumes do require the baring of my hairy legs.

Thistledew I would guess you are right that looking that way, people find it easy to listen to you. Theres that research that conventionally attractive people get paid more than the uglies?

But also, appearance is behaviour because you have to work hard to get rid of that hair, to fnd the right clothes - so style and beauty is an activity for women as well as a look.