I'm a feminist but...

FB - I think it is to a degree, but is also more than that.

On a personal level, I was quite an ugly duckling as a teenager, and very unpopular. I kind of grew into myself in my late teens/early twenties, and soon, unfortunately, found that I could use the way I looked as a means of gaining popularity with men, in particular.

However, I do think that there is something of a base instinct (or maybe a deeply ingrained patriarchal trend) to present oneself in a way that makes you most attractive to potential mates. The idea that you can challenge or change this, I think makes many people feel quite uncomfortable. Hence why both men and women have such approbation for 'hairy-legged feminist lesbians'.

It is hard to disentangle how much of this is animal instinct and how much is a creation of a patriarchal society.

It will be obvious I've only read the first few posts and conversation has probably movewd on but...

Have you read the Stitch and Bitch knitting book? It's written by a feminist. I hate the way some people regard it as 'unfeminist' to be a SAHM, knit, sew etc.

It's just another way 'womens' work' has been devalued by society. Society seems to expect girls to either be pretty pink and pathetic or 'tomboys' and aspire to be like boys/men. Sewing, knitting, crochet etc are all ineresting, skilled, productive occupations.
One of DH's friends played WoW and is CFBC and rather looks down on me because I have children and do 'girly' things like knit. Now, DH and my Dad can both knit as can BiL (he used to knit jumpers for his teddies. IOn my eyes his one redeeming factor) my DC (2DS one DD) will all learn how to knit, sew, cook do housework, chop logs change lightbulbs garden etc.

Thistledew - do you find them intimidating because they challenge you to consider why you don't allow yourself to be naturally hairy yourself?

.. just realised I pressed send and missed some posts.

I actually spend a significant proportion of my life hairy and without make up, so don't have any negative connotations of it.

I guess my point is I also enjoy the perfomance (which is I see it) of femininity (which has been quite a guilty pleasure for a while). So I guess my point was it was not in opposition to not wearing make up etc....

Swallowed - re work/career. I enjoy working it give me a sense of satisfaction, but that is purely personal.

I don't find the stereotype of hairy women revolting, but I do find them intimidating. Not entirely sure why.

Perhaps it is to do with what I said earlier about still fighting for a place within the patriarchy by conforming to norms of appearance. A woman who does not do that is presenting a challenge to my own sense of security in how I am perceived by society. That is a big thing to let go of.

"Everything we do has value simply because we want to do it."

Sorry to repeat it - but I love that quote.

Yes the freedom to go out looking like a bag lady is great and liberating.

Found it

"So often I am told, directly or indirectly, that a woman?s place ? and especially a mother?s place ? is in the home looking after her family. Which is a lie. And when a woman reinforces that lie by actively choosing to take up that place, it pisses me off."

"It?s like not voting.
It?s like one in the eye for all the women who fought to free their sisters from household drudgery and servitude."

Repress that sense of humour IMMEDIATELY SaF!
There is no room for flippancy in the Struggle.

A feminist is simply someone who advocates the rights of women as equal to those of men.

Whether a woman bakes or not is completely besides the point. Since when does baking or any other hobby that a woman chooses to uphold undermine the rights of women?

Beleiving a woman has the right to do what she chooses is a feminist notion. It's when baking, being a SAHM etc is forced on her that it becomes an issue.

I don't know, Seth. I remember reading a feminist blog that said that SAHMs were letting the side down, and I felt so angry about it, I was put off feminism for a long time.

I wouldn't ever think 'oh you BAD feminist, you!' because someone tells me they have a Brazilian. Honestly, would anyone here think like that?

as I said earlier, the 'You can't do that and be a feminist!' generally comes from outside feminism. I wonder if it is sometimes a way people try to stop you being a feminist: they would rather you weren't so they try to persuade you you're not.

Well your second paragraph is my family's approach, certainly, SAF!

I agree, snowmama, that women still aren't valued even when they're 'successful', but women have to work twice as hard as men to get to the same point, which makes it even more unfair.

But if success were measured in terms of how happy you had been able to make your life (and I mean 'happy' as in a deep, profound level of peace, even if bad things happen IYSWIM - Buddhism embodies this idea), then we wouldn't have the WOHM/SAHM rucks we have; and whatever work women (or men) chose, would be valued if those people are happy doing it.

A brilliant blog I read written by an autonomous educator has one of my favourite quotes on it:

"Everything we do has value simply because we want to do it."

We shouldn't be judging the things people choose to do, because if it makes them happy and harms no one, then it's valuable.

I think the point about measuring how happy and confident people are is very important - and would value traditionally women's work more.

To be honest though, I don't think that women are particularly valued for being successful in careers though. I am doing pretty ok career wise and usually get treated to the 'poor you, your poor kids pity parade' or just little digs about being selfish.

I hardly dare confess my 'I am a feminist but... ' confession, includes make up, heels, hair removal (including brazilian ..i know, i know)). I still regard myself as feminist to the core though.