Boycotting countries were women do not have equality in law

To a point -- but often the condoning of sexism within another culture comes from ignorance and failure to understand. It might seem contrary: but there is no reason why insight and understanding cannot be accompanied by horror and disgust.

oh bollocks naila feminists in those cultures also disagree with the infantilisation of women.

Why don't men need guardians?

i agree with you a lot of cultures are racist inherently, and that is why you need to look at the logic and reasoning behind their practices before just dismissing them, it is a lot more effective to try and look at the reasoning behind guardianship and how in theory it could be used to help women and then campaign for laws to be put in to place to make it easier for women to change guardians, or limiting the powers of guardians, then it would be to try and outlaw guardianship. It woyld be much more effective to campaign to guardians reminding them of their responsibilities from a pov which is consistent with their values abd beliefs rather then come across as butterbur condemning anything and anyone which doesnt believe in the way that you think people should live.

and also campaign from the same pov reminding women of their rights over their guardians.

obviously in order to do so you would have to try and understand the culture which none of you seem interested in.

"i find this a bit weird? i think you would have to first do research and see if the majority of women, not the most vocal or just the most educated, or those able to speak english, but the majority ow women across social backgrounds in that country dont want to have a legal male guardian, or if they prefer to actually have the security of a male guardian due to cultural and religious differences. its a bit patronising to those women that you feel angry about it. it is a bit like people who feel angry that women wear niqaab or hijab and feel like its an opression on the women and making them inequal whereas the women who actually wear it, the majority opt to wear it and want to wear it...."

This sort of sentiment makes me despair. And no, you wouldn't have to start with the US. Hello Sakura

It's a huge problem for feminists. Vocal campaigning feminism is dominated by the more left-wing: left-wing people are generally more likely to see racism or be unwilling to judge other countries and, yes cultures. But "other cultures" are very often deeply anti-feminist. Because culture and race become conflated, great contortions need to be achieved to avoid judgments that could appear racists. A lot of feminists don't seem to want to talk about it, including on here.

culturally conditioned huh? so basically you are saying you cant accept anyone who decides to live differently from you and if they do so they must have been brainwashed? lol

patronising or what?

please tell me what do you think of women who wear hijab? have they been culturally conditioned? including yvonne ridley and lauren booth?

it could easily be argued that you are culturally conditioned which is why you have the opinion you do#!!

Guardianship in theory means no women would ever be forced against their wishes and have to leave their kids to be looked after by others, how many mnetters say they dont have a choice about going to work? guardianship gives them that choice.
in theory their would be no widows or divorcees forced to beg or prostitute themselves etc,

but like i said the systems in place are not infaillable, (i cnt sp i know), likewise the system we have has its flaws.

Of course lots of women want guardians, when the effect of not having a guardian, would be to be made even more vulnerable and unsafe than with one.

Just like in the west, of course we conform to certain patriarchal norms and internalise them and justify them, to make our lives bearable.

This is a great post, a great question. Really well worth bringing up.

Why would a woman reject her adult status in the eyes of the law, and choose to take on the role of a child?

I cannot believe that any woman would choose this if she had not been culturally conditioned into believing she is less capable than a man.

Any woman who does so belittles all women.

i would agree that no system inplace is infalliable and their needs to be provisions in law to make sure that guardians dont abuse their powers and women are able to change their guardians,
i also think their needs to be some understanding of what a guardian is and what his responsibilities are towards a woman.

There are many organisations and charities that do deal with the issues, and try and raise awareness and try to bring change through enabling women to be independant and highlighting abuses against women.
the thing is, being we are talking about arab countries, these organisations tend to be muslim organisations and non muslims are understandably cautious about supporting them.

a good place to start would be with yvonne ridley and lauren booth, maybe check out jfac.org

butturbur, that is exactly what im talking about, a position being forced upon a people, slaves were forced to be slaves, and they didnt want to be slaves that is obvious.

now how many women from the middle east dont want to have a legal guardian?
no slave would choose to be a slave in a place where they dont have to, so why would women in the west still choose to follow the wali system when it comes to things such as marriage and so on?

to force someone not to have a legal guardian when they want one is not feminism, or freedom from oppression.

ayerobot i dont think anyone could possibly disagree with your statement, improving conditions for women accross the world, access to education and employment, safety from being harassed etc is paramount to any civilised society, women are the foundation of the society.

i think i took offense a bit at the fact the op felt that women having a legal guardian was oppressive to them, whereas a lot of women actually feel the oppossite.

" or if they prefer to actually have the security of a male guardian due to cultural and religious differences"

And black people were happy to be slaves, and had a rich and vibrant culture based on it, that we shouldn't interfere with. Plus they were sold into slavery by other black people, so slavery is part of their culture. Oh, and the Bible says black people should be slaves (something about one of the sons of Noah), so that has religion sewn up too.

Cultural and religious reasons don't sound so good, now, do they?

In fact they sound suspiciously like bigotry and prejudice.

heh heh heh. Western feminists can't win, can they? Either we get castigated for focussing too much on this country when we supposedly have it so good, or get told to fight the good fight at home because there's still much to be done.

I'm not sure that the argument on this thread is about installing western-style democracy, is it? It's about improving conditions for women wherever they may be in the world.

depending on your definition of human rights, some would say death penalty is against human rights, others would say the women needing a guardian is against hr, others working in a chain gang, others water torture, sleep deprivation, stress positions etc.

tbh there is enough human rights issues in our own countries where we reside why dont we start with focusing on those?

no i am not saying that there are countries that say they like being shot and raped, but there are plenty of people in those African and middle eastern countries that we are discussing that see that there are alternatives to the western democratic system and would like those alternatives implemented instead of democracy.
just because the state is not democratic in the westen sense doesnt mean the state wouldnt be responsible for the protection and education of the people, and for respecting and taking in to account their issues and opinions?
Any country which is condoning human rights abuses is wrong.

there are countries in this world where the general opinion is "We like ebing told what to do by someone we didn't choose to represent us. We like being shot at if we speak out against the status quo! Really, we prefer rape to literacy, honestly. It's what we want for our children - for us to have absolutely no say about the environment they grow up in. No age of consent? that's fine, I was married at nine, and although I know fistulae are disabling and frighteningly common, I haven't got one so i don't mind about all the little girls that do. I don't think about anyone else, ever ...."?

Really?

because I have difficulty believing that there are whole countries with no insight into abuses of human rights.

exactly so why would one try and force democracy on a country when you dont even know if they want it?

show me a country/state nailak where the whole population has signed a social contract stating their preference for a different political and social system

exactly. you can't.

mric so basically you wont go to any country that doesnt follow your own ideaology, ie democracy etc, but what if the people in the country dont want democracy? why are you all convinced that everyone has to believe the same things you do despite religious and cultural differences?
obviously oppression of women is something to be condemmed but i dont see how not going to a country is going to help that? oppression of anyone is not right, but you have to differentiate between opression and cases where the people prefer to have a different political and social system.

women are subject to both racism and sexism whereas men are only ever subject to racism

Very interesting thread, OP, and it's certainly given me something to think about. I agree with you, btw. Also agree with HerBeX re the racism/sexism issue. Why is racism worse? Think it's perhaps accepted that it is by the patriachy because some of them will have been subjected to racism, but very rarely sexism? It's not that I am suggesting that either is right, but I don't think that one is worse that the other.

I agree.

There are many countries I wouldn't currently go to - Israel, China, most of Africa and the Middle East - because I don't want my money to go to support these racist, sexist and/or undemocratic regimes.

So Europe or selected parts of South America it is!! Vamos!

yes because rape is a property crime under patriarchy. 18 black men raping an 11 year old middle class white girl would have violated the property of the middle class white men and the retribution for this is property violation is strong. It never ever has anything to do with the rape victims trauma and experience of being violated.