Boycotting countries were women do not have equality in law

Who's your guardian then?

And yes yes yes to 'To Kill A Mockingbird' on the book club. I recently re-read it and had some difficulty thinking about the whole Mayella Ewell thing. Although I think she's as much of a victim as anyone else tbh.

Good idea, HerBex. I read it again last summer with my new feminist lenses in my eyes and have the film recorded to watch. There's a lot to talk about in it, isn't there?

Had a google for stuff on legal guardianship after it was mentioned on here and found This organisation Seems like it would be of interest to many on here. And This too from Human Rights Watch

Just for the record, I am all for choice if it is a free one. Unfortunately, so many choices for women are Hobson's choices.

I will suggest it for bookclub shall I?

unrulysun i am saying what i want for myself and my daughters....

and i dont know what mendacious means

ooooh herbex please can you start a new thread where we discuss to kill a mockingbird from a feminist perspective

it's years since i read it but it would be fascinating

you start

You can paint yourself purple and stand in Trafalgar Square reading aloud from the collected works of Jeremy Clarkson for me. But when you start denying women in other cultures the same basic ethical treatment you want for yourself and your own daughters on the basis that they might not want those rights it's really hypocritical and mendacious tbh.

ok... but what if it wasnt a white liberal but for example a women in niqaab standing up for her right to show whatever parts of her body she felt comfortable and cover whatever she wished?

i dnt wear niqaab btw...

anyway we digress sorry op, but you are right there should be more awareness.

Do you know I think there are very few things which piss me off as much as cultural relativism. It's ultimately so fucking racist. It really does seem to me to be about usually White liberals saying that they don't give a shit about brown people's rights and dressing that up as some kind of blow for freedom.

'How do you know they don't want to be opressed in a way that would make you shake with fury if it were your own little girls we were talking about?'

Hmm, don't know, I would say yes if both parties want that. Feminism is much more broadly for me about people not being constrained in gender roles.

There's a thread running at the moment about SAHMing it's here

does equality in your opinion and the femenist opinion mean the same? so men should do same share of childcare etc, should be same amount of sahd as sahms?

im not making any point just asking

sorry for hijacking th thread

oh gawd where do I start.

Everyone's definition of feminism is different, but mine is simply the recognition that women are full human beings like men and that the world has got to be re-organised to recognise and accomodate that and to allow women to take their place alongside men as full members of society, not second class members of practically all societies on earth. And that that doesn't mean women slotting in to a world designed for men, it means re-designing the world so that both men and women can function in it as equal parts of humanity.

Very vague and wishy washy. Someone else might have a better one.

Here is a really interesting discussion on Arab feminism in the context of the recent revolutions.

No: you misunderstand. In as much as you can "like" a religion, I "like" Islam, and I respect it. This is going to sound shallow but I like the Five Pillars, I like the gentleness, I like the culture, the artefacts, I know this sounds shallow but I like it. What can I say.

The burkha doesn't represent Islam. You know this. If you are trying to say that it does, then I'll go right off Islam in an instant. But it doesn't.

and i agree with you that religion and culture are used to opress women? havent i repeatedly said that cultures are sexist?

i agree with you, what im trying to understand is what is femenism actually about? is it about the womens right to choose? or what?

naila tbh your different perspective is the normal, orthodox one that we see in real life every day.

It's not as if we haven't come across your arguments before. Your views are normal.

If you want evidence that arab feminists are just as likely to agree with western ones on the way religion and culture are used by the patriarchy to oppress women, here's an article you might find interesting. Happy reading!

Wajiha Al-Huweidar

have you tried asking them and tried to understand their point of view?

or do you just think what is best for you must be best for everybody?

do you think it is due to your cultural conditioning that you cant accept burka? in the area i live in london it is a common site, noone even thinks twice about it.

and as for what you said about the origins of islam that is what im talking about, cultures are sexist, so if we look in to the faith of the people we are discussing and see the reasons why they have certain rulees and try to campaign that these rules are implemented properly according to the ethos of their faith and beliefs is more effective then saying you shouldnt belive that it is wrong.

tbh i dont understand how wearing a burka is like wearing a swastika? are you saying anything that represents islam should be hidden coz it is equated to terrorism or something? i am not sure, i am not offended, just dont understand.

Is that going to get deleted? It probably is, isn't it. Sorry if I've offended. Maybe a swastika is going too far. But symbolises oppression and I don't understand why any educated woman would support its wearing.

I wouldn't defend the right to wear a burkha, not in the current global context. I think it's a bit like wearing a swastika. The origin of Islam is much more liberal, feminist and progressive than most people imagine (I'm sure a lot on this thread know this though). The burkha is a symbol of the way it's been corrupted to oppress, damage, mutilate and murder women.

herbex you say bollox and it is easily said but what is your evidence? i mean i can easily say the same as you with no eveidence!! lol but it doesnt mean much really?

and i dont know much about the femenist cause, which is why i thought i could offer a different perspective.

exactly so thanks Herbex

Yes the book was presented as a powerful, progressive piece - which of course, it was, in the context of racism.

But it was steeped in rape myths which went unnoticed and unchallenged.

I don't condemn the way other people want to live, Nailak if it's a free choice. I would defend any woman's right to choose to wear the hijab, or any other clothing, and to follow other religious rules as they choose.

However, I feel that religion (and not just Islam, Christianity and Judaism have an equally blemished record), is the last refuge for all kinds of intolerance and bigotry. Racism, anti feminism and homophobia have all been supported in the name of religion. I think this needs to be challenged.

To kill a mockingbird

"what I am angry about is the lack of publicity, and engagement with the issue in the west. Alright The person I most resembled in my teens was Lisa Simpson, and I was probably more aware of political campains than I am now, but ( and I want to stamp my feet here) why is this acceptable."

Well worth saying. But everyone knows why, it is very simple. No one wants to seem bigoted. Most people are genuinely torn. But you have absolutely pinpointed it: a tug of war between racism and sexism.

One other thread that skirted around this issue brought up the book which I can't remember the title of: made into a film. About racism in southern America where a black man is acquitted of rape. The poster said it demonstrated how racism always trumped sexism.

I think you'll find there are plenty of patriarchal systems that don't need any help from ours at all.

The question is, to judge or not to judge. And if to judge, then to campaign or not to campaign.

TheBossOfMe has good thoughts on this. She works with women in Thailand, or did last year anyway.

Also I don't really know why you are talking about imposing our political systems on other cultures naila.

If you know anything about feminist discussion, you'll know we want to tear our shitty patriarchal systems down, not export them to other people.