Is the increase in anti-feminist trolls normal in the general cycle of this topic?

....they mention that they don't necessarily agree with what you are doing but they do it in a very polite way....

Just to answer the point about concern trolls, I've come across a few of them. There was a very annoying one on the Hooters threads a while back. Yes, we had one guy who joined up to say that he couldn't wait for "bitches with big tits to serve him beer". But that was a less than subtle post.

The concern troll comes on and pretends to be interested. So you engage and spend precious time answering questions and responding to points they raise. Then they proceed to tell you where you are going wrong and they mention that they don't necessarily with what you are doing but they do it in a very polite way.

Then they suggest that you are going about things the wrong way but don't have any alternative suggestions.

And you start wondering what this person's point is and why they are posting. This is after you've spent about 5 hours responding to them and are slowly going mad.

I speak from personal experience....

Thanks Aye, really appreciated. Shall start with those, and try not to come stright back and say 'yes, but, what iiifffffff....'!!! :)

Choice feminism has become the default and one that most people take without really doing much thinking about it, toddlerwrangler. To have come to a different conclusion is swimming against the tide and does reuqire lots of reading and musing etc. I was a default choice feminist. I was 18 in 1991 and thought the world was my oyster and I could choose to do whatever I liked and chose and thought that other women could and should do the same. I have a lot in common with Jess, I think, and I can see she has done lots of the leg work too.

toddlerwrangler, have you read the threads recently on porn? Lots of links on there. Here's one and One on choice in general

Dittany, don't start trying to draw others into your viscious, petty and repatitve little web. Jess has done something you havn't, which is take a few momenst to expain the stance rather the ponce on one quote that has been explaine NUMEROUS time, and refuse to answe resnoble points.

Thank you Jess - seems sensible to me and gives a good picture of bothe 'sides' (newbie V's hardcore!).

Hi Todderwrangler
Tbh, and without wishing to sound aggressive, I can see where AyeRobot and Dittany are coming from. I think most people start off with the idea of "choice feminism". It is the accepted perspective/point of view amongst non-feminists and it's a position that suits patriarchy and the industry. And therefore most people IME who come to feminism start off by asking the same questions (e.g. about prostitution/why don't why drop the term "feminism" etc).

I had all these thoughts myself when I "found" feminism. I was also pretty naive about prostitution and thought that surely it was ok because women were choosing to do it. But some friends of mine on Facebook knew more about it and kept posting articles that I couldn't help but see and that's how my eyes were opened to the abuses of the industry. I didn't even go proactively looking for information on it. I wasn't on Mumsnet then and I didn't talk to anyone about it. My information came from friends posting on Facebook which prompted me to read up on the subject further.

And the more I read, the more disturbed I was and can honestly say that 4 years ago I was completely naive about the sex industry.

I do agree that it is useful if more experienced feminists can share their knowledge and resources with newer feminists. But I think one of the problems is that so many people come to feminism with these questions that it could be a full time job to answer every time someone asks for more information.

I have to say - and I don't mean this aggressively at all - that I got the impression that you didn't want your views challenged as you had already made up your mind from that previous thread. I apologise though if that's not the case.

Don't you tell me what I am and am not. Not for one second will I tollerate that shit. Get over yourself - who the HELL do you think you are? I note you didnt answer my quesion, or respnd to my other point that the thread I raised my inital questions about being introuced to feminism on were in fact on an 'intro to feminism' thread, yet you still chose to punce, didnt you?

Unfortunatly I have come to reason that actually you ate too blinkered to enter into reasoned debate.

Now I AM leaving, because I am on the edge of losing it.

Dittany - please stop being so agressive. I am on the verge of losing my rag and dont want to because despite you being so agressive in your posting style you obviously have a lot of interteting things to say. However I you will never see anything other then the fact I am curretly pro choice, and therefore need to be shot down. You are saying a feminist cannot be pro choice? Or is it in your view a feminist cannot be pro choice?

Aye - I did see the therad about who appracites the forum. Unfortunately, at the same time I also saw two massive bunfights!

Thanks for the suggestion - I would love to resurrect the thread but think nothing good can come of that tonight. I shall levae poor OP's Troll thread alone now!

You do realise that in every other sphere, feminists have to justify their viewpoint at every turn? Is it too much to ask that this space is one where the tables are turned?

If you looked at the threads like the one about who appreciates this forum, you will see plenty of people who lurk and have changed their viewpoints and had their questions answered by doing what I said in my previous post. I'm one of them too.

Maybe if you go back and revive that other thread and answer the questions that were put to you, we can get the debate going again and you'll get your questions answered too?

Aye - I don't think you ahve to be more inclusive. Does it put it in perspective if I say I am more comforable in AIBU then in here!

Anyhoo, I think I am taking this round in cicles - I read a bit, I get lots of questions. You (a ganeric you!) get fed up with answering newbie questions so tell people to go away and read a bit. And so the cycle continues.

The things is, toddlerwrangler, it wouldn't take long as a lurker to pick up some links to feminist blogs or other threads on here, use the search engine to read older threads, get some book recommendations. So, when someone comes along asking regular posters to explain and defend their viewpoint yet again, it is tiresome. Always going back to square one only gets one person anywhere and is actually a big (and quite arrogant) ask of someone. Of course people on here think differently about the world around us, but not everyone agrees, so there isn't one voice or some kind of club going on. I lurked for ages, followed the links and put in the leg work and still don't post very much. Because I'm still learning, see?

It's not pink and fluffy on here, just like the rest of MN (especially AIBU), but it is beyond me why we have go out of our way to be more inclusive than anywhere else.

I wasn't out to promote anything, but you just won't have it. And this is exactly my point.

I have questions about the sex industry is bad viewpoint, but I fully admit they are through nievity. When I understand the answers I may even change my mind - surly thats a good thing for feminism (in the broader sense, I don't mean having me on baord specifically).

I and others want to learn - you are putting people off though?

If I want to be ride/scrap with you, beleive me, I will. But I dont want to - I didnt then, and I dont now. Why cant you see what I am trying to say rather then refuse to look past the point that I fall under that (what I beleive to be called) banner of 'choice feminism'.

Just to add, I come in peace with that last staement, it is not meant to be a dig at all. Again, blame my vocb and poor use of puncation.

I wasn't asking you to pursuede me Dittany - I was genuinely interested, that is my point. You just decided otherwise. I don't even know if you are aware of how you come across in this section sometimes? This group would be such a great resource to share information about feminisim and promote the viewpoint, but with comments such as:

"The other thing you can do is do your own research about the sex industry. You can answer your own questions about feminist viewpoints on the sex industry"

you make this place seem like a closed club. Again, I am sad as it has so much to give?

I doubt you will be taking this peronlly, and I don't want you to - hovering round MN these lat few months I suspect your skin is about the same thickness as mine. The point I am trying to make is that you obviously care deeply about feminisim, so share what you know. Not everyone is out to get you/have a pop/troll/promote thier viewpoint.

Flamingo - I'd just say I have several in my cupboard.

And then, we get to the point we are at now, where very few people come here to ask questions bacause they get jumped on, and that way noones opinions will change and there will be no debate, no engagement. And that makes me sad as this board is obviosuly so knowledgable.