Really? Is it just me who doesn't get the Daniel Craig drag thing?

I'm not sure I follow her argument and perhaps it's because I don't feel so strongly about it that I can be bothered to apply myself...

What she doesn't seem to address, is what to do in the here and now, before this marvellous gender-free world. I don't disagree that it would be nice if at some stage none of it really mattered, I think it matters at the moment because many women feel that their voices are being drowned out by members of the privileged class and I think that whether you agree with them or not, you have to take that POV seriously.

I don't understand Twisty's argument, it doesn't make sense to me. Also I don't understand her vision of a world without gender, I don't think that will ever exist and is therefore an argument that is bound to lose and will never gain the approval of the majority of women and men.

An interesting question is how do men see transsexuals? Do men think that MtoF transsexuals are women?

Bet Daniel Craigs girlfriend respect him for doing it.
Whatever, i love him and he cant go wrong in my eyes.

I presumed they put him in drag momentarily to highlight the false dichotomy the voiceover is referring to.

Whatver a woman is (in this context, expressing it visually as a direct counterpoint to the voiceover that is expressing it factually), is that deserving of the inequality that's still around? DC's expression remains the same. He is the same person, but if he appeared to be a woman, his lot would be different. Sort of questioning why a woman might still be unequal. Because there's nothing to say she's less capable, maybe it's the way she looks, no hang on, that's ridiculous. Isn't that his point?

Maybe I misread it... and I'm probably not explaining myself very well.

(just realised how dodgy my 'some feminists probably actually do hate men' analogy is, particularly as I have seen more evidence of some transwomen being antiwoman and none of some feminists hating men. Can I take it back and replace with 'some women probably do actually hate men' please?)

I'm settling for a Glee repeat Proleworth. Laters...

I agree with your entire last post SSM, I cannot even begin to imagine what it must be like knowing you simply are not able to play the game as one of the "boys" , but they shoot themselves in the foot because whenever women try to define their reality, trans women (the online ones at least) lump feminists into the same group as the men who go about bashing and killing transsexuals. I mean, the lack of integrity here is astounding.

I agree with you Sakura, in that I have a huge problem with having womanhood defined by transwomen; my position about what makes a man/woman is probably that I don't actually know but I am certain it has a lot to do with lived experience. The idea of being forced by law to accept someone else's definition bugs me no end.

However, I am also very unhappy with some of the generalisations about trans in Beauty and Misogyny; I have known several transpeople in my time and they do not fit into many of those boxes. I totally don't buy the idea that transwomen in general hate women: some do, I am sure, just like some feminists probably actually do hate men. But none of the ones I know.

Twit, your post actually helped me, thank you...
Need to take a break, read some chick-lit or something.

sorry I meant S G M

steth, I have nothing against trans women per se, there are lots of countries where a third gender is created because nobody in their right mind would want to be a woman in those countries.
What I cannot abide is transexxuals changing laws that actually affect women (for example, now being allowed in women's prisons) without even checking with women i.e 50% of the population whether that would be okay or not.

Sakura it was Stewie not me who said 'as marginalised if not more so than women' so I'll leave it to her to argue that point - I am not interested in quantifying it but I do think transpeople are marginalised and there is a huge amount of hate speech against them (real hate speech I mean, not just questioning trans philosophy). The amount of street harassment they get, for instance, is enormous.

I think Proles is spot on, that the patriarchy uses trans for its own purposes.

Quite possibly Prolesworth, and it's also possible that trans-women know they're not women but they have to act in order to get the treatments they want from the medical system. Transsexuals have always had their place in patriarchy but it scares me half to death that they can now erase the M on their birth certificate and change it to an F and be put in the same prison cells as women. So yes, the concept of transsexualism is perfect for patriarchy.

I've come accross the aggressiveness of trans-women online and believe me, they don't even like women deep down. They behave very much like men.

What I don't understand is why they don't join feminists, why do they have to dominate like men?

They've taken over lots of feminist blogs, they've got quite a feminist following, they've divided feminists into us and them (quite a cute divide and rule patriarchal tactic there) and any feminist who says "but hang on a minute I don't think a castrated man has got anything to do with women" is labelled as TRANSPHOBIC and a bigot and silenced. Now the problem I've got is that the only "feminist" issue they're fighting for (pretending that gender are sex are the same) actually works against women and they've dumped all the other important issues that women face.

but a lot of transwomen absolutely do NOT think gender and sex are the same, Sakura, so it seems to me really unfair to posit a big monolithic trans institution like that.
I totally agree that there are huge problems with the way sex changes are viewed by law and medicine but the way they are treated by law and medicine is often precisely NOT what some transpeople want.
for instance: when they are told they can't have a sexchange because they are not dressing in a feminine enough way therefore they can't be serious about being a woman.
I do think a lot of the sensible discussion about trans got lost in that awful thread where we were accused of hate speech for questioning whether a transwoman is really a woman; from what I know of transwomen it is not as simple as either side makes out.

Sakura isn't that what they want, you to become bitter and give in?

SSM " I think they are as marginalised, if not more so, than women"

Do you know what percentage of the population women are compared to trans-women? ANd yet nobody's even sure who actually has the most power in media (I mean it could quite easily turn out to be trans women, in spite of their miniscule numbers compared to women, seeing as they definitely have more power in medicine and law than 53% of the population)