Really? Is it just me who doesn't get the Daniel Craig drag thing?

Sakura - your cis women point - very good - I need to go away and think about that. Thought-provoking.

Trans women exist all over Asia and Brasil. they don't even try to usurp women, because who would want to be a woman there, and besides, they know they're not women. Why the hell should European, Australian and American trans women click their fingers and get laws changed over the heads of women?

women are killed on a regular basis for having the temerity to exist.

Do you want to know why men attack trans women? Because it reminds them that the sexual hierarchy is fake , that they too, can be fucked/raped by another heterosexual man, and this angers them because that subordinate, debased (in their eyes), status is reserved for women. So when they see a man play acting the female role it reminds them how precarious the whole set-up is. This angers the hell out of them. BUt it doesn't anger them as much as an actual woman does.

It's starting to boil down to whether people truly understand what woman-hatred is. "Raping a woman before killing her made you a double veteran" said a Vietnam con. You have to get really knee-deep into the sheer depths if women-loathng that goes on everywhere, before you can make a proper analysis here.

Steth, you have submitted to the trans demand that women be labelled, yet again, as other . It's not original. Cis-woman, by definition is women in relation to trans women. Just like women have always been viewed in relation to men.
From Aristotle to Freud men have always viewed women as a negative, a defect, the other, in relation to them, and you are merely continuing this happy patriarchal fallacy by using the term "cis"

I agree with Madwoman. My transwoman friend gets harassed on a depressingly regular basis, whereas for most women I know it happens occasionally.
There are some areas where transwomen and ciswomen have different interests but I would really like it if we could work together on street harassment.

more random attacks on mtf trans in comparison though - and more attacks on natal women by familiar attackers. so if you're an mtf trans, you are infinitely safer indoors. if you're a natal woman, you're safer (in comparison) in public.

being a woman is a lot more socially acceptable than being an mtf trans in most places. you don't get randomly beaten up in bars for having the temerity to exist.

but it's not a feminist context, tbh. a lot of men take more exception to blokes who want to be women than to women as a whole. just because.

Chipped, I would say that an angry male is likely to stab you if he finds out you have a penis. Again, the point you're missing though is that he would be even more likely to stab a woman. Two women a week are murdered by their spouse. Two women a week by their spouse alone! That's aside from the random stranger killings.

To that end, why should I be treated differently in any way?

The point you're missing Chipped, is that middle aged women don't want to be "treated like middle aged women" which for a born woman equates to being "treated like they're invisible and inconsequential" It would be nice for middle aged women if they were treated with the same amount of respect that people reserve for men.

On the trans rights thing...

I'll declare a interest - born a boy, now a girl (if that label is right in your 40s...).

Thing is this, if you saw me walking down the street, the chances are you wouldn't see anything different about me to any other middle aged woman. To that end, why should I be treated differently in any way?

I can't speak for others, although I would say the militant trans / gender queer folk often scare me, but for me the only use of "rights" is to get functional equality - banking, legal ID and so on. Apart from that I'll fend for my self like any other woman in the workplace, home and society as a whole? I certainly don't want any extra rights or privilege, just occasionally I need something thats slightly different to reflect circumstance.

This morning I read a piece in the Telegraph, I think it was yesterdays, about a woman confronting the man who raped her in a car park. It got me thinking again about personal safety. It was ironically about the time rape cropped up on this thread. Sorry if this offends, its not meant to, but the thing is this: I'm "pre op" (ugh horrid term), so suppose I'm am attacked by someone with a knife, the attacker discovers my pre op status, what happens next? I suspect theres a high chance of my being stabbed? I'm not going to say that makes me more vulnerable than any other woman, or gives me special status, God no, I'm just pointing out the twist that can go unmissed. Its a worry I live with.

yes, that's true. our female body is part of who we are.It's definitely not an abstract feeling in the way that trans claim.

even our energy is different. you can feel a man in the room a mile away, even if he's dressed as a woman.

I was thinking about it, but then I realised a much better question would be: what does being a woman feel like I just feel like a human

if you go on the F-word don't, whatever you do, mention that a vagina is an organ not a fuckhole because it's TRANSPHOBIC!! to do so

thanks alice

I have to admit I sit down when I go to the toilet it is a lot more splash proof and less messy than standing up :P

Day late and a dollar short maybe, but for trans feminists see the F Word. I've seen lots on there. For any discussion you have to go back a few years as now it's pro-trans.

(And my husband wees sitting down, more importantly!)

I never actually seen this advert tbh. I only seen the one with the woman in it wearing an hiv+ t-shirt.

Sorry very inappropriate smiley there given the appalling news, it was just the idea of internet sprites being my main focus when hearing a news story...

That's mumsnet for you, first thing I thought this morning when I heard the news was "I hope Sakura's OK"

he's been there about 14 years now Sakura, his wife is Japanese.

Didn't know your brother was here steth. I'm glad he's okay.
They said some of the nuclear reactors shut down automatically, which is worrying because they obviously "felt" the quake, but they have "no information" on leakage. I'm going back to the UK if a nuclear plant has leaked here.

On BBC oPresident says there have been no leaks....hope thats true and not just posturing. Hope you are all okay Sakura.

just heard from my brother in Saitama prefecture that he is fine and SIL is in France.
hope you & all your friends and relations there are ok Sakura.

Except I just head they're worried about the nuclear plants. Some have shut down but they have no information on leakage. WTF that means I have no idea.