Can men be feminists?

But I don't know what it's like to be a raped woman, Alice. Isn't it the humility that's important?

The difference is you know what it is like to be a woman. And imo that makes a difference as you see this stuff first hand. A man doesn't. You learn your feminism, in part, by being a woman.

Men saying "I think the feminist viewpoint is right most of the time" would really annoy me, though, teitua.

To me, being a feminist means accepting that women are not equal and being willing to listen and to learn about the issues so that you can campaign/act/speak out effectively against the patriarchy and begin to make a difference, however small.

There are many women on this board who come on (myself included) and say 'I think I'm a feminist...but I don't know anything!' and listen, sometimes get defensive and irritated, calm down, listen some more, and gradually being to really understand the issues, and how profound and ingrained they are.

How far into that 'journey' (for want of a better word) is one allowed to call oneself a feminist?

Maybe I'm not one yet! I know I've got lots more to learn, but I also know I've learnt more in the last two months about feminism than I have in the last two years about anything else! But I was calling myself a feminist even at the beginning of the process...should I not have done that?

My point is, is it ok for a woman to say 'I'm a feminist but I don't really understand the issues that deeply yet' but not for a man to do the same?

Sorry to keep on the same topic, but here's a coincidence. The aforementioned Hugo Schwyzer has a piece in today's Guardian:
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/04/manning-up-guy-rules-manliness

"Men can be fully in favour of improved rights for mothers, an important part of feminism, and that is wonderful. However, I doubt that such a man would expect to be called a mother himself, would he?"

But women and feminists aren't one and the same. Not all women are feminists, so I don't see why all feminists should be women.

Though I see the problem with the "this is what a feminist looks like" campaign (as I do look rather like a 'feminist', so I don't think I'd be helping to join in), I think it's important for people to state that they are feminists. Maybe pro-feminist is too much like '(not) a feminist, but' for me. The last thing we need is to water things down, it's precisely what our enemies want us to do.

(Re Hugo Schwyzer)
What about the women who he harmed. How are they getting on?

See below for one story.

hugoschwyzer.net/2011/02/03/the-cautery-of-hate-on-breakups-psychoanalysis-and-the-healing-power-of-rage/#more-3253

Why are we even talking about him...?

Perhaps you shouldn't have mentioned him.

I can't work out what I think about this. My hackles really rise when I hear a man calling himself a feminist while spouting unfeminist claptrap; it makes me suspicious of his motives the way I would not be of a woman, because on the whole I don't think women get rewarded for calling themselves feminists the way men may do.
But a man defending feminists to other men and simply saying 'I am a feminist' is very powerful.

I think on the whole if a man calls himself a profeminist it signals that he understands what the issues are with men not having the right to take over the movement so it is preferable, even if I don't want to go as far as saying 'men can't be feminists'.

FlamingoBingo wrote - "I have never loved the 'This is what a feminist looks like' t-shirts, although I've admired the celebs who've donned it (naively?). I find myself thinking a lot about what I look like, and whether that explodes the myth about what feminists look like or compounds it."

On Bill Bailey wearing one of those T-shirts - his beard and moustache do little to destroy the stereotype of feminists being hairy .

StewieGriffinsMom wrote - "Dh and his feeling is that when he calls himself a feminist it's a political statement with power. Pro- feminist, to him, makes it sound like he agrees with some aspects, those which don't infringe on his privilege as a White, middle-class male, but the rest can be discounted as some women being a bit silly."

Fair enough for your DH, but who is putting those limitations on your DH's feminism, apart from himself?

Your DH's distinction is not the one I would draw when describing a man as a feminist or pro-feminist. To me, pro-feminist doesn't imply partial acceptance of feminism by the man. It implies recognition that the man can be supportive of all aspects of feminism but he is gracious enough to recognise that he is not part of the oppressed group (women).

Men can be fully in favour of improved rights for mothers, an important part of feminism, and that is wonderful. However, I doubt that such a man would expect to be called a mother himself, would he?

Oh yes (responding to Ormirian) I once saw a discussion where people were saying that if they knew a woman who said she was a feminist, but who had occasional lapses, they'd find it easy to keep taking her seriously. But if it were a man, they'd be much harder on him. I can see how that would happen!

It's another good reason for a man to say "Well, I think the feminist viewpoint is right most of the time" but not to call himself a "feminist"! That way nobody can call him out for failing to keep to a line of perfect virtue absolutely all the time.

One thing that Hugo Schwyzer has covered is forgiveness and atonement. If you've done something terrible and everyone knows about it, what can you ever do for the rest of your life? And what can you expect people to think about you afterwards, also for the rest of your life? He says some people (some of his colleagues at the college where he teaches, for instance) won't forgive him, even several years on, and he doesn't argue that they should. I think he's saying that there is sin and the consequences of sin, but also that there can be redemption. Isn't that the good side of Christianity? I'd call it prejudiced to emphasize the bad things he did, while leaving out what he's done and tried to do since. Maybe he's turned himself around and maybe he hasn't.

I'm not crazy about the Good Men Project. It strikes me as trying to improve male behaviour without being too challenging. I suppose they'd say they want to hold onto their audience, but if so, maybe there's no point to it.

I don't know. I guess DH would say he was a feminist if I asked him, but some of the things he says I don't think are feminist. But then again, I know some of my views don't chime with everyone on here. So does that mean we all define feminism according to own 'rules'? So are we 'feminists' because we say we are? If a man is not feminist in his actions but call himself one, is he still one? WOuld that be the same for a woman?

Haven't read whole thread (am feigning the whole "work" thing), but my initial feeling is that yes men can be feminists. However someone calling themself a feminist doesn't make it so - and this is the case far far more so IMO when men are saying it than women.

I think some men claim to be feminists in order to have an effect (whether that be impressing women in order to sleep with them, or to excuse other sexist behaviour etc) rather than out of any heartfelt protest against the injustice of ingrained misgyny etc. This is clearly bullshit.

However men who walk the walk of feminism are more than welcome to call themselves feminist as far as I'm concerned. TBH I wish there were more of this kind. I'm lucky enough to know a few and really am glad of it - not in a doling-out-cookies way, but in a kind of "let me hold this close to my heart when I read shit stories in the news that some men are doing their bit too". way.

I never thought Amp had much to say in the first place, but I think what he actually sold was some kind of link, not his whole blog; there was certainly quite a fuss over it at the time.

Hugo Schwyzer is a very interesting character (he has dual US and UK citizenship, by the way) because he did go through a very evil period of drugs and sex. It's as if he's a Christian preacher saying he can tell us about sin, because he knows it very well! And in fact Christianity, in a liberal form, is another of his concerns. He's an amazingly prolific writer.

hugoschwyzer.net/

One place Hugo Schwyzer writes is the Good Men Project, which can be worth a quick look:

goodmenproject.com/

So I can still like David Mitchell and Bill Bailey, then?

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