If men gave birth, would elective c-section be considered ok?

That idea shows up the double standard very well, reminds me of the book Dittany recommended.

If women and children are weaker and more likely to feel pain for minor ailments (which isn't true but stay with me), then logically they should be given more sympathy and assistance when they complain of pain. Instead the answer is to tell them to get on with it.

Same as how women are weaker and so can't manage to do well paid work (victorian idea) but strangely are highly suitable for doing all of the heavy, boring, never-ending drudgery.

A lot of the views in the medical establishment are still stuck in the received wisdom of the victorian era, I reckon. It's slow to change.

Women and children, in fact. Is there a feeling that women and children are quite weak, so if they are saying they are in pain it's probably not really that bad, so let's not use powerful drugs on them they should put up and shut up.

While is a big strong man says he's hurt then he really must be hurt and it's all very serious.

Possibly?

Pain relief is very interesting.

They have discovered that certain forms of pain relief have a greater effect on men than on women - common types of pain relief (but can't remember which ). In that when men take these drugs their brains go "righty-ho" and switch off the pain, whereas women's don't do it as much (or however it works but you get my drift).

When they did the trials for these drugs way back when who did they test them on? Men of course. So it turns out that the dosages that have been used for years and years have been inappropriate/not so effective for women. And you can imagine that some people prescribing and being told the treatment is ineffective will put the woman complaining in the "phantom pain / exaggerating / drama queen" box.

It is also the case that children are often under-medicated for pain, for various complicated reasons.

I do wonder though - does the "establishment" take pain reported by men seriously, while pain reported by women is more likely to be dismissed/undertreated?

You're right there - it is too easy to get sucked in by personal experience and away from a rational discussion of the issues.

aware of own personal bias on this<

the current 'AIBU to want an ELCS' thread beng a case in point.

well, 'this day and age' is probably going to be looked back on as a time of barbarism at some point...

research into proper pain relief is still fairly fledgeling in historical terms. as pain relief is usful for both men and women - I'm not sure the lack of realy good knowledge advances in this field is a specifically feminist issue (as I'm sure we all know men who have received inadequate/ inappropriate treatment for pain too). It may simply be todays science isn't that great really.

Not shouty on this thread I mean, but on MN in general it can get pretty awful.

I do think it's a shame that it all has to get so shouty on this subject.

Difficulty is there's not a crystal ball as to which birth will be better for which woman. I guess that's why

I just think that in this day and age, we should have got this birth thing sussed, TBH. I also think it's a shame that those who strongly advocate for one way or another can sometimes be really quite nasty to the "other" bunch.

i totally agree with your last para too.

erm, my generalisation bit was in the phrase 'taken in the round' - you see i think c/s is too often presented as an 'easy' choice in a negative way IYSWIM.

"taken in the round, a c-s is very definitely not an easy or pain-free experience"

It's statements like this. That statement is not true for my personal experience. The "very definitely" is incorrect. Better to replace it with an "often" or something softer. Childbirth brings out such terribly dogmatic positions.

I do think that the medicalisation of birth swung too far and that women had a terrible time, and we still have the hangover of that. People like the NCT are working to change things though. I think there is room for balance, I don't like absolutism in these things.

It is not for anyone to say whether for any one individual woman, a vaginal birth or a CS will be easier or have a more straightforward recovery. It is also not for anyone to say whether someone elses experiences are valid or not.

OTOH if you don't have the "wonders of modern medicine" then you end up with a lot of dead women and dead babies.

I am also interested that 6 week recovery period for CS is mentioned (even though many women find they recover quickly and its not terribly painful) while the sometimes lifechangingly awful possible consequences of vaginal birth are not. No-one on my ante-natal classes mentioned tearing at all, or the possibility of incontinence or anything like that. Some of the women on MN have never recovered physically from their vaginal deliveries, and some have never recovered mentally either. When the "vagnial vs CS" debates happen the possible after-effects of CS are always mentioned, the ones for VB rarely. I find that interesting in itself.

It seems that if women are damaged by a CS, as that is something that was done to them as part of an operation it is big and important. But if they have been damaged terribly by VB, no-one talks about it.

There are definitely things going on underneath here, forming these ideas. And I think they are very entrenched.

the pain isn't like other pain. and there are consequences of taking pain relef - there just isn't a magic wand to wave to solve the problem!

taken in the round, a c-s is very definitely not an easy or pain-free experience (maybe female consultants get a better job done than most) and has a 6 week recovery period (particularly difficult for BF women - who get prescribed pain meds they can't take without making their baby too sleepy to feed as happened to my neighbour...)- and in other areas of practice nonsurgical methods are usually preferred where available - so why not in childbirth?

and it isn't an unreasonable view that choosing pain reduction strategies (home birth, massage, tens, water birth) that enable active birthing may make for a less painful experience taken in the whole - with less likelihood of resulting injury too.

hospital interventions often put women through more pain than necessary - something like 1 in 5 women has some form of induction, be it relatively painless, or ARM, just being in a hospital makes the experience more painful, monitoring, unfavourable positions etc - do we think men would put up with such a cavalier attitude to their well-being?

although i think historically the male attitude has been 'silly women, you need to be in a big safe hospital rather than at home with another silly woman. You need a man to deliver your child.' Regardless of the fact the very presence of that man increases the chances of interventions being used. Regardless of the difficulty involved in getting to that hospital in labour.

However, i think increasingly the divide is less male/female and more HCP/patient. The 'this is policy, so we're doing it' line seems to get trotted out at man and woman alike.

Don't forget the religious idea that women must undergo the pain of labour.

That sort of stuff formed opinion for millennia and shouldn't be dismissed. The bible says women must suffer in childbirth. Make if it what you will. Would be an interesting discussion. I think that a lot of things that we think are actually old ideas sugar coated with new reasons.

Hope everything is OK on the domestic front now TC.

On this section I don't think that anyone would hold a view on what another woman "ought" to do. As no choices that we make are made in a vacuum. So even if eg I hold a view that I think is "right" WRT birth, it would be wrong of me to try and impose that on someone else IYSWIM.

I do know that there are concerns about the over-medicalisation of birth in some quarters - male doctors historically taking over and telling women what to do - and that is a very good point and a very interesting discussion.

Speaking for myself, I had an EMCS and then an ELCS and was very happy with both

Not sure if this helps, but I'm an NHS manager. When I was pregnant with DD and having an elective c-section, lots of female consultants I worked with sidled up telling me that they had all had elective c-sections. They found it slightly bizarre that people wouldn't (not obstetricians themselves).

I'm with them actually. An elective c-section is much less stressful and surprisingly safe. I also think the whole no pain relief stuff is bollocks, even though I know many, many people don't agree with me. You wouldn't let a dentist take a tooth out while you gently inhale a bit of lavender oil, no you want full-on pain relief. I think it is a gender issue.

You think? I'm sure that is the case some of the time. Sometimes it seems that in long labours the partners have genuinely just got bored

i like to joke when i am in pain for that reason.

fear. they are afraid of what's going on, and therefore pretend its funny/ not seriously happening.

I mean I can't imagine any people I know well making light of a person saying they are in pain in any reasonable circs TBH (eg labour, broken leg, pretty bleeding obviously painful things). What's the psychology?

I don't really understand when partners are unsympathetic about labour and birth TBH. That seems very strange to me.

When I was having my awful attempt at labour with DD1 DH was white as a sheet and panic stricken. Not particularly helpful, I grant you but I can't imagine him thinking I was making a fuss about nothing etc that you read on here quite often.

erm, perhaps people would have homebirths where appropriate instad of believeing they couldn't do it because 'the man' told them they couldn't?

rather than increase the risk they rip their winkies in hospital?

on a funnier note: my next doors husband was admitted with suspected kidney stones. He was in agony. The consultant refused pain relief saying they needed the pain to tell them what was happening. Cue 8 hours waiting for test results to come back, unattended and in pain before discharge without a clear diagnosis. His wife had to smile a bit,as when she was in labour he was an abject tool who complained his phone batteries had run out, and told her she was wimping!.

Obviously I can't speak for all men, but if you saw the fuss my DH can make when he gets a measley paper cut, you'd see where i was coming from.

If men had to have babies the human race would have died out many generations ago I think.