An 'interesting' conversation with my MIL about rape

Sorry, obviously he is not a rapist. He was accused but he did not actually rape her as per the jury's verdict.

Forgive me, but I do feel a little as there is an apparent hegemony of people here with permissible views and I have been held up one or two times as having unenlightened ones. I am, in fact, feeling a little told off. I appreciate that was probably not the intention.

omg, you are being very naive. Of course it deters women from coming forward. One of the worst things about being raped is nobody believes you. This woman was very brave and faced that head on. She reported her attacker and took him to court. And then the jury told her that they didn't believe her even though the rapist's story is perfectly consistent with him raping her.

How often does that happen with any other crime? Has it ever happened with another crime?

"it was a jury that aquited him and I don't see how they could have if the dm story is fact."

Because juries bend over backwards to let rapists go free, it's quite simple.

I don't know why people are so confused about it, most rapists walk free, that is a fact that even non-feminists don't deny.

Boffinmum, where has anyone rounded on you? As far as I can see, they have asked you questions about your view and put an opposing view forward. Why do you define that as being rounded upon?

It's a bit difficult to discuss it when people round on you for having considered opinions.

Yes I know that kar but it is the same for all courts and all crimes there are instances where the jury or judiciary make judgements that are grossly unfair and makes them seem blind to what is actually going on. This should not deter victims from coming foward and prosecuting.

omg, there are so many cases like this where rapists are acquited in the strangest circumstances. And this is one of the strong cases that actually made it to court. This one had at least two witnesses, when most rape cases have only one.

Can you imagine how that poor woman must feel now? I'll bet she wishes that she'd never had gone through with it.

Last post directed at kar btw sorry.

Yes I did see it and I have posted in that thread. As I said in the thread itself it was a jury that aquited him and I don't see how they could have if the dm story is fact. It is wrong but what I am saying is that cases like this shouldn't discourage woman from reporting and following through with the prosecution. Not all jury are the same people. I am waiting to see if there are any more reports that can shed anymore light on this story.

I do think that teenagers/young adults, both male and female, could do with these concepts being openly discussed (and the consent line as defined above unequivocably drawn). It was never part of my education and it should have been - it's a time when hormones are driving you in all sorts of crazy and illogical directions and I think it's a time when lots of sexual habits/power dynamics are formed which stick. I think only really really conscientious, reinforced, specific teaching of these concepts is enough to override the subconscious social messages that are all over the place in our still-very-patriarchal culture.

I think women need to be taught about unashamedly asserting their boundaries at the same time as boys are taught that active, clear minded consent is necessary before any kind of physical sexual contact.

Omg, have you seen this thread?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1159290-Man-cleared-of-rape-because-he-was-too-drunk-to-realise-which-bed-he-was-in

Do you think it's any wonder that women don't report rape or want to see it through to court when this sort of this goes on?

BoffinMum - have you read that link that QuodLibet posted? You really should, it's brilliant.

I've not seen that before QL so thank you for posting it. :)

I don't think men are stupid and don't know what rape is but things like if a person is drunk you are better not having any sexual contact with them at all unless you know for sure that they are of a clear enough mind to make that decision and if you don't know for sure simply do not go there even if it is your partner.

I love that Fugitivus link Quodlibet. It is simply brilliant.

But the thing is, BoffinMum, rapists don't rape because you look too sexy and they can't control themselves. And most rapists aren't freaky randoms - don't we all avoid those in the main? It's more likely that a woman is raped by someone she knows. So all the safeguards about avoiding odd blokes and only letting your hair down with friends goes against the reality.

OMG - do men really not know that they should check that the woman is willing to let them put their penis in them? Do we need to educate them to that level? If so, I am astounded that they have managed to be so over-represented in business and politics because they are thick as pig shit. Or, perhaps, it is not a matter of educating men in the definition of rape. It is a matter of telling them not to be so fecking entitled.

I am not saying that at all herbex this is why I specifically said about alcohol. We all know that it is the cause of many many crimes and why a lot of victims of crime can't protect themselves properly. When I go out for the night I alway s keep a clear head. I never drink enough alcohol to leave me vulnerable to attack. I have extreme paranoia but I think this is to do with my history which I have posted about on some threads. I never go anywhere I don't know how to get out of and I do not trust people that I do not know until I get to know a bit more about them. I think that is to extreme for most people but at things as simple as not drinking to much will help you defend yourself.

But BM, will you tell your DS never to walk alone late at night because it will expose him to potential muggers/ knife attackers?

I agree that the education needs to be more aimed at boys, not girls. As a woman, I know that I received some (entirely useless) rape avoidance advice. Do boys ever get taught how they should avoid becoming rapists? I have no idea.

FWIW that needs to go beyond 'no means no', it has to be 'unless you have active consent then it's no'.

I've found that to be a bit of a controversial POV on MN which is hugely depressing to me.

Years ago, I shared a flat with a couple of blokes and we used to go clubbing together with his friends - me and 3 men.

I would get hopelessly, paralytically drunk. They would carry me home. Not once did any of them rape me. Because none of them were rapists. It didn't matter how drunk I got, how paralytic I was, I was never in any more danger at the end of the evening than at the beginning because my friends were not rapists and it is very odd, to imagine that they would suddenly become rapists just by me being paralytic - like that would somehow unleash their inner rapist.

Women are only in danger when they are drunk - or when they are sober - if the man they are in company with, is a rapist.

That simply cannot be stressed enough.

Equally I can't imagine a situation where I would think it was my fault if something like that happened to me, so I don't think this applies to all women any more than saying all men are potential rapists.

I am not saying it's her fault any more than I would tell my sons it was their fault if they were knifed on the way home from the pub. I just think it's prudent to avoid nutters and difficult situations where possible. Of course I wish we could all walk down the street at night and be completely respected all the time, but the world is a darker place than that, and underneath, mankind is pretty feral.

I had heard the 6% statistic and it makes me very angry, by the way.

But omg20 the only way women can avoid being a victim of this crime, is not to be in the unescorted company of a rapist.

And since rapists don't have big R's tattooed on their foreheads, unless women literally never allow themselves to be alone with a man, they can be the victim of this crime.

But if you advise them as such, you are implying that every man is a rapist and should be treated as such, in order to avoid rape.

Which obviously isn't proportionate, because most men aren't rapists.

I know this has been posted before but I found this incredibly illuminating in terms of how women are socially taught to be intimidated/compliant/in danger and why socially women are blamed for their own rapes: here

OMG and others talking about how we can educate young people, I think that recognising how deeply our ingrained ideas permeate our physical and verbal language is a really important.

For me, the ideas expressed in this blog also explain your MIL's internalisation of these poisonous ideas, OP.