An 'interesting' conversation with my MIL about rape

That link was great. Thanks.

(Re speed limit I was thinking od drunk drivers ploughing into me if I was driving to be safe and locking houses to help prevent theft.)

I get the normal assumptions don't apply and that the crime is different to property crime and that it happens more often by someone you know.
Where does this leave me because horrible stuff still happens and I suppose I want to have some hope but now I am just feeling despair.
So locking houses, attack alarms, driving to the speed limit, trusting my husband, all that stuff we do to try and avoid danger is fake? Man I think my head might explode! There is nothing I can do?

SueLawley - because rape isn't like most crimes. If you look at the list that Boffin made, there are some dangerous assumptions which put all the onus on the woman:

I tell my DD that if she gets completely pissed and out of control, there is a risk something bad will happen to her

if she flirts with relative strangers she has to be prepared to manoeuvre out of the situation as quickly as she went into it

if she dresses like a slapper then a certain kind of bloke will think he can take advantage, so to be prepared for hassle if necessary

Rapists may well take advantage of women who are 'completely pissed' or women who are 'dressed like a slapper'.

They also rape women who aren't drunk and those who are dressed very soberly. If you are raped, it is not your fault . And it doesn't matter if you were wearing a nun's habit or fishnets and no skirt. You are still not inviting men to rape you.

It's not the way women behave though. It's the man being a rapist. My rapes happened with an ex. All the telling me not to dress provocatively, drink too much, give off signals, get in a car et al would not have stopped that happening. Being told that rape was not just something that happens from a stranger in an alley would have been more effective. Making rape seem as if it is just stranger rape, that can be prevented by the way you behave, imo masks the more usual rape that is someone you know.

Sue Lawley - someone more educated will come along in a moment but I think in basic terms it is because the responsibilty is then placed on the woman to avoid the rapist as though he were a natural disaster or a busy road rather than a person who is responsible for his own evil actions... if that makes any sense. As in - we should be teaching boys to respect women and not rape them rather than teach girls how to avoid the rape...

But the question I posed above shows I'm not all that together about the whole thing either

Sue, if you are raped, it's most likely going to be by someone you know and probably in your own home. The only way to stay completely safe isn't to not go out late at night on your own or to avoid alcohol and be careful what you wear. The best way to avoid rape is not to be alone at home with your partner. Giving people that advice to avoid rape is just madness in so many ways.

It's because telling women to take precautions creates a culture where people see it as their role to not be raped. Which then permeates attitudes to rape that feed not being believed, not being taken seriously, blaming yourself, and ultimately not convicting rapists. It creates a series of myths about rape, that people believe to be true, and then act on when responding to rape. Does that make sense? I'm not sure I've explained that so clearly.

So what is the answer regarding what we teach our daughters?

I HATE the teachings that they have to behave in this way or that way to avoid being raped. Its like we teach them not to run out in front of cars else they'll get run over and not to dress like 'slappers' else they'll get raped as though they are the same principal.

But in a society where so many men beleive women who behave in a certain way 'deserve it' surely we need to protect our daughters by guiding them away from mischief... I honestly would like some guidence here?

Oh the question- What is wrong with offering advice on keeping safe as you would with sons and daughters re any crime?

I am going to put myself out there and ask a question and I am willing to be educated as I really don't understand fully. I am new to this and so you may need to be basic.
I get that it is never the woman's fault.
I am confused about the advice that Boffin gave to her daughter and why some of the posters aren't happy with it.
I know that even though I don't go to the pub or wander the streets at night on my own, there is still a chance I could be raped because I am a woman and if a man is a rpaist and has a chance and wants to, then it could happen.
But, and here is my query. That rape is a crime and as like any other crime, there are steps that people make to try and reduce that crime happening to them, then thinking about these steps in relation to rape would seem sensible to me.
Please help me understand. I am open.

I don't mind changing my mind, I do all the time, I just feel, well, sat on somehow here. Anyway, I'm off. Bye for now.

And also from my POV, the point of arguing about it is that I learn and that sometimes my viewpoints are challenged and I change my mind about something based on wht someone oposts or links to. And if I don't, it's because my arguments have been really challenged and I've had to argue my case properly and find more evidence for what I believe to be true.

You don't have to avoid these threads either.

If you come on with an honestly held view and you're prepared to engage with an open mind, no-one is going to slate you.

We will invite you to change your mind though.

Well I think the point of having a discussion is that everyone learns a bit more.

And also, they have their deeply held perceptions challenged and that may be uncomfortable if their deeply held perceptions aren't based in reality.

I'm not saying that as a dig, that's a general point - mostly on rape threads, people literally have no idea that most rapes go unreported, that most allegations are true, that most rapists walk free, etc. etc. When they find out that all their very deeply held assumptions about rape, whcih they hadn't realised they had, are based on rape myths, they are shocked and uncomfortable, understandably. But that's not a Bad Thing is it?

There isn't one really, but a bit of me wonders what the point is having a discussion. I normally avoid these threads. Don't know why I said anything on this one.

But why is that a problem for you?

So what?

If you're right and we're wrong, what's the problem?

boffin - I don't think you are antediluvian and I think your desire to protect your daughters is entirely natural. What I would argue is that it's the sons who need to be educated, not the daughters.

No, I feel evey time I open my gob on rape I am seen as antediluvian.

LOL no-one's trying to tell you off BoF.

But I do think it's important to challenge people's views on rape, because they are very deep seated and that is why we have this appalling conviction rate

YEs you are asking women to be braver than most men would be OMG.

Not only do they have to stand up and go through the humiliation of the police process adn the trial, they then have to watch the jury assess their pain, as less important than the fact that a man in a suit who raped them, might have to suffer adverse consequences becasue of it.

And now in addition we also have the threat of being prosecuted for making a false allegation if we can't get the jury to have more sympathy with us than with our rapists.

And juries nearly always have more sympathy with rapists than with their victims, because they simplsy see them as more human.