Surnames and women - thought you lot might be interested

That's very interesting Little Red Dragon,

I'm intrigued by family history, especially researching the female line. Seems my mother's mothers came from Lincoln and Lincolnshire. Great-great grandmother may have been a milliner living on Lincoln High Street

One of my DD's best friends is a Webster, so I'll be sure to let them know that one of her female ancestors was probably a weaver of cloth, and family name came from her !

well, LRD, my Old English is also very poor! I did study linguistics, and etymology is one of my favourite subjects, but English is not my area of expertise. I only know things from past English from things I have picked up in my other courses of study, where these things overlap, and personal interest. However, if anyone wanted to email me about my own subject area, I would be delighted! I rarely meet anyone who shares an interest. So you never know.

Seriously, though, I'm not suggesting you put yourself on the line contacting the speaker. I was just airing some thoughts that occured to me re etymology of estre in my previous post.

just had a thought - could -estre be related to Easter, as the word derives from the name of a Saxon goddess?it of a longshot, I know, but wouldn't it be nice! The etymology is much more pleasant, as it relates to words meaning dawn and light.

oestrogen comes from Greek via Latin into English. It meant sting, gadfly or sudden irrational impulse. I suspect that it was the last meaning that originally connected it with the feminine, much like the word 'hysteria'.

I haven't seen any evidence that it is related to the -ster suffix, and it seems to me that -ster and -er are phonologically related. I think it is simply the feminine form of -er.

I am going to tell and re-tell this to anyone who will listen. Thank you LRD, I have greatly enjoyed learning this.

-estre makes me wonder if oestregen has its roots in the same stem. Does anybody know?

Maybe it is the medial sound process at work! Flutterbye is very descriptive and makes sense.

Don't married women keep their maiden name in Spain?

IIRC in Victorian times it became customary for the eldest son to be given his mother's maiden name as his first name, particularly if she had no brothers. That is how traditional surnames like Clifford, Winston, Lincoln became common first names.

I always thought butterfly came from flutterby as well.

However I have no idea why I think that, who told me that, or have any evidence to show anyone

Very interesting, thanks for sharing that :)

I work with children and families in a very multicultural part of London and many of the families from different parts of Asia and Africa do not have the tradition of changing names on marriage and I think it's the case in many parts of Southern Europe and South America too. Could it be that (some) northern european women are in something of a minority in following this convention?

Not in this case, I think. Etymology of "butterfly". I've looked on several different places, and similar explanations everywhere. Not found any mentions of 'flutterby'.

did you know that in the islamic religion women are supposed to keep their own surnames and not take their husbands surnames, as they keep their own family identity (theoretically)

Hmm, not convinced. I don't think butterfly is any easier or harder to say than butterfly, and, in any case, I'm fairly sure that 'ganger' has a meaning of its own, to do with work crews - possibly a senior navvy?

It's easy enough for usage of a word or suffix to widen: you would think nothing of a female conductor nowadays.

As to how the -ster surnames became common, I imagine that could be something to do with widows carrying on with the family business, at a time when surnames were not fixed and unchanging.

Another American word is "teamster", a man who works with horses and wagons (as in a "team" of horses). Back when horse-drawn vehicles were common, it was definitely regarded as men's work. There aren't many teamsters now, but there's still the Teamsters' Union, a trade union that has an unfortunate association with organized crime. So, gangsters among the teamsters, and vice versa.

Look up Jimmy Hoffa if you're interested.

DH says maybe it was something to do with the vikings?

Is cool anyway

Gangster is a relatively modern word. I think it appeared in America during Prohibition. Adding -ster to a noun to indicate someone who does or is that noun had probably become genderless by then.