The secret to a happy, long-lasting relationship - why is this bothering me so much?

Well it's because women's concerns aren't to be considered as important as those of men, isn't it?

Lots of men aren't still getting up in the night, adjusting to having a new baby, getting used to changes in their body.... having a baby impacts a man's life much, much less than it does that of a woman. So of course, what is considered normal and reasonable by him, may be completely different from what is considered normal and reasonable by her.

And because he is the measure of all thigns, not her, we as a society define what he considers normal and reasonable and expected, as normal and reasonable and expected. And women's experience is sidelined. As always.

Exactly SaF. My doctor tells me that bf-ing is like a mini-menopause. Maybe this is yet another reason why extended bf-ing is frowned upon?

I do agree with HerBeX that sometimes sex is on the backburner for other reasons which are completely understandable and that society isn't very accepting of that. There's an oft quoted statistic that 6momths after a baby is born 50% of couples haven't got their sex lives back at the place they were before the birth and, instead of making us say 'Meh.' that's supposed to be a shock and a problem.

That links in too with what we were discussing on the chat thread about women running around after a man trying to reassure him that he's still the centre of the universe when she and the baby really ought to be.

Yes SP that's true. It's perfectly possible to have excellent sex with someone you don't particularly like very much or aren't getting on well with.

But women are told over and over again, that our desire is predicated on liking and respecting someone, that we only like sex if we're in lurve and also, for many women, they perceive it as their only negotiation tool in a relationship. And of course, we're taught that it's something we do for men, rather than for ourselves.

So it becomes acceptable to withhold sex as a means of negotiation, but it would never occur to most women to not do the laundry/ cooking/ vacuuming etc., which is something they don't like anyway. I'd much rather give up doing the laundry if a bloke is getting on my nerves, than give up having sex. And yet that doesn't seem to be an option (not that I believe the way out of an impasse is for people to go on strike about things, I think that's not a constructive way to solve problems anyway and wouldn't want to conduct a relationshipn like that, but YKWIM I hope).

SAF - I agree with that. Though having come from a one parent family I am very much pro people trying to get into relationships that will last while they are bringing up their kids. Two parents in a bad relationship is worse than a single parent. But a single parent isn't ideal in my experience.

I can see the relationship's run it's course POV though I also think there is too much emphasis put on romantic love in our society. I see marriage first off as a partnership of mutual goals and respect. Love is a fun starting point (and pretty much the only viable one for most westerners) but sustaining love is more of an off shoot of that respect and the intimacy of living together than the infatuation stage of love.

When someone is living with a disrespectful pig - I really don't understand why sex is the issue that comes up. I can have sex with someone I don't really like and still potentially enjoy it. What I couldn't do is spend evening after evening with them in the same house (let alone do their laundry etc. ).

Sorry, cross posted.

But yes I think we're saying the same thing. That doing a bit more washing up because that way you'll get sex, isn't the solution. Not being a disrespectful pig is and doing the washing up is a sign that you're not a disrespectful pig.

But often, by the time someone has realised that, the respect and affection has gone because who can possible feel respect, affection and desire for someone who has seriously disrespected them?

I suppose some people can - that's why couples get over affairs, bad patches etc. - but without the acknowledgement of the cause rather than just going through the motions, that's where I think people don't get over it.

I actually agree with that.

Sometimes, relationships have just run their course. They were great for two years or five years, or ten years, or twenty years or whatever, and now you've done and experienced all the things as a couple that you're ever going to do together, that you wanted to do, and it's time to move on.

But we live in a society that says that's wrong - that accepting that it's time to move on is failure, breakdown, schism... when actually, if it could be accepted as evolution of a relationship, without rancour and bitterness becasue we're supposed to keep on to the bitter end, everyone would be happier.

Yes I think SP that the men doing more housework thing, for me isn't so much about them doing housework so that their wives have more energy, it's that I suspect many women ahve a simmering resentment about the fact that they are being used as skivvies.

So it's not a tiredness / lack of energy = no desire for sex issue, it's a lack of respect = no desire for sex with the person who is disrespecting you issue.

The housework is a symptom, not a cause IMO

That should be:
or how much is because of social expectations...

I can agree the presentation of sex being a male desire with women as the gatekeepers is problematic. It does seem ubiquitous - even on this board there is often an implicit assumption that it will be men who want sex more than women. It does seems to be the experience for most women when you read forums etc.. I wonder whether is because women have generally lower libidos and how much is because of social expectations and the way sex is moderated by our society. Is there any (decent) research on this?

I get a bit about the frequent presentation that men should pick up more of the housework and childcare in order to rebalance sex dirves in a relationship. Honestly, if I had much less time and energy than my husband because he wasn't doing as much work as me it isn't our sex life we'd have to be worried about - it would be basic civility.

The reason why "this bothers me so much" is the way it was introduced, with the wife making it the husband's birthday present. It reinforces the idea of sex as something that men always want, and that women may give them as a special treat.

It could have been done in a different way that wouldn't be a problem at allif the couple had talked about how sex has become too mundane to be worth bothering with, and how other activities always seem to get in the way. And so this couple might mutually decide to have daily sex for a year, to see how it really feels and to see what effect it has on their relationship. I'd be interested to hear if it becomes a dreaded chore, or if it can be a part of people's nightly routine that they always look forward tohopefully more than brushing one's teeth!

I don't always feel like having sex, but when there's a sex drought in my life I suffer. Not immediately, but when I have more sex I tend to feel better about life in general.

See, I can't relate to this at all... I enjoy sex, when it's good, and I like doing it and I suppose at times when I'm having lots of good sex then I feel good about life in general, but I don't think it is to do with the sex, I think it's more to do with every time I've been having lots of good sex it has been at the beginning of a relationship and that is what is making me happy - because I've had that feeling at times when I'm not having sex, just through having a good time with friends etc. (I should mention that I have only had one "serious" relationship and the sex in that went downhill fast).

If I'm not in a good relationship or there's nobody on the horizon then I just don't think about sex at all really. I don't miss it or wish I could have it, I still get horny I suppose, but I'm happy to sort myself out and I don't tend to fantasise about a famous person or anything, it's purely a physical thing - whereas if I am with someone new I do get cravings for sex and if I can't see them then doing it myself isn't the same, it feels empty somehow.

But I guess we're all different - if you've identified that it's something which makes you happy, then the article is useful. I just don't think it should be generalised to apply to every person. (Not saying you thought that - I think the article does though.)

Yes I think regular sex can actually cover up the cracks in relationships sometimes.

When I was with my xp we had sex nearly every day, right up until the day we split up. It enabled me to shut my eyes to the fact that we had serious, major problems in our relationship - after all, if we were having so much sex, there couldn't be that much wrong could there?

I don't disagree that couples' sex lives dwindle because they are tired and busy. Or that the article is typical a fairly DM, trite, boring whitewash. And I think the attitudes many are attributing to this article are typical of the DM. But I don't think they are present in what the woman says in this article (I've never read her book).

I do think the idea that it makes sense for both people in a marriage to try to work on their sex life isn't such a bad one. In large part because you are both tired and distracted and don't have the thrill of the new to sustain you. I don't always feel like having sex, but when there's a sex drought in my life I suffer. Not immediately, but when I have more sex I tend to feel better about life in general.

I see it as a bit like exercise. When my life is really sedentary and I don't make the effort to go to the gym, I feel rubbish in a lot of ways. If I add exercise into my day, I often don't feel like doing it at the time, but overall I feel better about pretty much everything.

I don't think regular sex is the secret to a long-lasting relationship. There are plenty of relationships that break up even though they have active sex lives. But I think it's something that makes me happier in general.

Yes I think it's quite extraordinary that not wanting as much sex as you used to in your thirties when you have young children, a home to run and sometimes an outside job to do as well, isn't considered perfectly normal. It's always presented as a strange, inexplicable problem that needs to be solved and funnily enough, the solution nearly always involves something women can buy - expensive bubblebath for an hour of "me-time" and tacky underwear, as opposed to something men can do eg their fair share of housework and childcare.

Although of course it's not always women who suffer loss of libido, it's men too. But also what is not discussed, is that for many women, their sex drives comes back with a vengeance in their forties - is that because their children have grown up and they have more energy, is it because the men they're with have got the message and are actually doing their fair share of housework and childcare so women feel more desire for them, is it because they have divorced the men involved and that has given them a surge of energy, is it hormones?

Does anyone remember George and Mildred? Yootha Joyce played a sexually frustrated middle aged woman who was permanently wanting more sex from her very gamma-male husband, you can bet your bottom dollar that in this scenario, with a middle aged woman wanting sex every day from her same -aged husband, the Daily Mail wouldn't be telling him to get it up and get on with it, it would be telling her to calm down and FGS do some housework and go down the gym to work out that excess energy.

if people aren't getting enough sex in their relationships, it's usually a sign that something else is wrong, not the sex per se

This - and also the way both partners react to a difference/lull in sex drive is important. If it's accepted as a natural state of events when children are young, work is stressful, or for whatever other reason, and approached respectfully if it goes on for longer than this, it wouldn't be a problem. The problem comes when the partner who wants more doesn't respect the other partner's lack of desire and starts pestering/pressuring for sex, which starts off a vicious circle of resentment and rejection.

I suppose a different way of wording this is that in a situation where it becomes a problem, one partner (I'll use man just for simplicity, but it happens both ways) takes it personally that his wife doesn't feel like sex because he believes she should always find him attractive and want to have sex with him. So he sees it that she doesn't want him - where actually it's nothing to do with him, it's most likely because she is tired, stressed, has a lot going on or whatever, and the fact she's married makes no difference, if she was single or in a new relationship she probably wouldn't feel like sex either. (Although hormones help in a new relationship obviously, if she was that tired, stressed, etc, you wouldn't start a new relationship anyway. But I digress.) Really he should be seeing the other factors rather than "I don't get sex any more" and wanting to help relieve her stress, tiredness or whatever because he cares about her and not because he wants to have sex again.

Then of course some men have the belief that women don't really enjoy sex anyway so why should they have to be in the mood - but I don't think there's much point discussing them in this context, because (hopefully!) that is a rare and draconian view and the instances where one partner is just being a bit selfish and quick to take things personally rather than seeing it from their partner's POV is more likely.

Yes quite - that's exactly right, if people aren't getting enough sex in their relationships, it's usually a sign that something else is wrong, not the sex per se.

But that's not a message the DM is interested in promoting, because the partner who is not getting enough sex, would then have to examine their own behaviour, whcih might be impacting the other partn'ers desire...

IME "lack" of sex is symptomatic, not a cause of problems in a relationship. "just do it" is unhelpful advice.

If you have to relegate sex to the same level as washing the dishes/ mopping the floors/ other chores you'd rather not do, then why bother?