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Original poster

Sexism in Foulkes On Fiction

89 replies

charitygirl · 14/02/2011 15:18

Did anyone see this on Saturday - the theme was 'The Lover'? I settled in for a happy hour of 19th century literature, including lots by women, and had to turn off after about 15 minutes because I was nearly in tears!

The rot set in while they were discussing Tess of the D'Urbervilles - a book I admit I love a lot. I could not believe what the male talking heads (and they were all men) were saying:

  • Alain de Boton laughing blokily with Sebastian Foulkes about how Hardy was clearly sexually obsessed with Tess, and that the result was a character all men could get an erection for, particularly as she is so submissive and things 'just happen to her'. No! Men repeatedly choose to abuse her!
  • Foulkes describing the scene where Alec rapes Tess as 'Alec could no longer control his desire for her'. No! Alec chooses to rape her.
  • Simon Schama talking about how Tess is 'confused' by her body, and the 'effect it has on men'. No! Men use Tess's beauty to excuse their treatment of her - both Alec and Angel do this.
  • Foulkes describing how Hardy leaves it ambivalent as to whether Tess is raped or unenthusiastically consents to sex with Alec. No! Even given the typically vague 19th century description, it is clear that either (a) Tess acquiesces because she literally has no experience of non-acquiescence and is scared of Alec, or (b) is asleep. Either of which means, effectively, she is raped.

I'm not saying Hardy ws a 'feminist' in any recognisable sense, and Tess is not that realistic a character, perhaps. But I could not believe the sexist way they framed the discussion, the simplistic descriptions of rape, or the utter lack of sympathy for Tess (other than possibly as someone 'so sexy she's doomed'). I had to turn over then so maybe/hopefully the conversation improved.

OP posts:
TondelayoSchwarzkopf · 15/02/2011 14:41

"middle of the road male novelist contemplates some filmed versions of books only to the extent of elaborating on his own prejudices."

Totally agree. How you can talk about P&P, TotD and LCL for example without talking about class & socio-economic issues is hilariously sad. How supposedly intelligent and literary people can talk about these books without placing them firmly in their social context dismays me.

dittany · 15/02/2011 13:54

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Prolesworth · 15/02/2011 13:50

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stripeywoollenhat · 15/02/2011 13:44

i saw this. proper yuck, i thought it, and i don't think it deserves any deeper analysis than this - middle of the road male novelist contemplates some filmed versions of books only to the extent of elaborating on his own prejudices.

yes, it is interesting, though, the framing question, tondelay, but sadly, i feel the answer lies in the generous interest of many women and the shocking self-absorption of many men: women don't turn it off/stop reading because of the sex of the author/critic, while clearly many men do (i'm trying to be fair with all those manys).

TondelayoSchwarzkopf · 15/02/2011 13:28

WT = Wuthering Heights. Obv.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf · 15/02/2011 13:23

I've watched half of this now and agree with all comments here.

  • what qualifies Alain de Boton or Simon Schama as literary critics? One's a philosopher, one's a historian.
  • only one woman commenter - Helen Fielding.
  • BOAK at AdB's obsession with penises of dead men.
  • do we really need another discussion / TV show about P&P and WT? They are great novels but seriously they are 200 years old. Plenty of contemporary novels on the subject.
  • I don't know what it says about this programme that Roman Polanski was a better mediator of the story of a teenage rape victim than SF, AdB or SS. Grin

There are bigger issues here too - why is all serious literary criticism framed and led by men? This is not paranoia - Mslexia does regular analysis of the broadsheet book pages and male writers dominate despite more books being written by women and the overwhelming majority of fiction consumers being female. If women stopped buying books there would be no publishing industry.

I think there is more than a little jealousy - especially as the majority of big-selling commercial authors are female even in the non-traditional genres like crime, horror and thriller.

Original poster
charitygirl · 15/02/2011 13:00

Interesting baggedandtagged. I don't AT ALL think Hardy wants us to like Alec but i agree he forcefully makes the point that high and mighty Angel is no better as he destroys Tess's life just as effectively as Alec does, by being a puritannical, judgmental, unempathetic knob.

It is still Alec who leads Tess to her death tho.

OP posts:
RamblingRosa · 15/02/2011 12:54

Really BaggedandTagged. Haven't read Tess for a long time but I remember Alec as truly hateful and Angel as just a bit weak and pathetic.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf · 15/02/2011 12:47

Oh god. I have to watch this on iplayer now...there goes work.

LadyBiscuit · 15/02/2011 12:47

I didn't watch the programme precisely because I think he is a twat and because I heard Mariella Frostrup interviewing him and knew this programme would make me want to shout and throw things at the TV.

I wish I'd not been right in all truth :(

BaggedandTagged · 15/02/2011 12:46

Might get flamed here, but I think Hardy does intend it to be ambivalent re whether Alex rapes or seduces Tess (i.e. whether he forces her/she's asleep, or whether she submits because she feels she can't say no due to her status relative to his). Either way, he's still a [insert word of choice here] but I think Hardy still intends us to like Alec more than Angel who really is a prize shit.

Didn't see the programme though.

Unrulysun · 15/02/2011 12:41

Blue pill red pill Charitygirl ;)

I could start a thread - which books would we want to discuss and would we need time to read them?

Original poster
charitygirl · 15/02/2011 12:34

I think it's a bit of a feminist catchphrase LeninGrad. Seen it lots of places.

Feminism enriches my life 100%, and the more 'radical' I get the more it does so, but it does have the side effect of making even a programme about books I love seem hateful.

To put it more simply, once you see shit, you can't unsee it, innit.

OP posts:
alexpolismum · 15/02/2011 12:33

good idea, unrulysun, are you going to start a thread?

Unrulysun · 15/02/2011 12:22

I had SF pegged as a self-satisfied misogynist twunt loooooong ago and therefore purposely avoided his onanistic ramblings. Hurrah! :)

I am feeling the rage on behalf of Lizzie though Angry

I was idly musing about whether the feminist book club ever does fiction or about whether we could have a fiction thread? Would anyone be interested? We could do some classics to start with?

LeninGrad · 15/02/2011 12:08

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Rhadegunde · 15/02/2011 12:06

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Rhadegunde · 15/02/2011 12:04

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dittany · 15/02/2011 11:43

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Original poster
charitygirl · 15/02/2011 11:18

Oh I'm so pleased you all agree! I thought it was one of the most spectactular 'missings of point' that I'd ever seen.

And yes - since when is P&P about Darcy? It's these kind of prigrammes where you realise that the 'liberal intelligentsia' has no more comprehension of women as REAL HUMAN BEINGS than does the rabid right.

and now I hate everything.

OP posts:
RamblingRosa · 15/02/2011 09:09

Oh no, I liked Atonement and I like McEwan Blush. Should I shuffle off to another thread that caters for MNers with dubious literary tastes?

I do agree that McEwan is seriously creepy though. I've just finished reading The Innocent and it was so creepy/gruesome that I really thought it was going to give me nightmares.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 15/02/2011 09:02

At least we didn't have to look at him talking about Atonement. That truly is a loathsome book.

In fact, has anyone else noticed the vast creepiness of McEwan?

alexpolismum · 15/02/2011 09:01

I also hated Birdsong! Everyone else was telling me how good it was, so I thought I'd try it, but I couldn't see what all the fuss was about. I finished it, in the hope that by the end I would have found something, but no. Perhaps it just wasn't for me!

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 15/02/2011 08:56

And, I know she's not a "lover" so ok to have left her out, but can I just say, the Lady Catherine de Bourgh/Elizabeth Bennett face off is one of the best scenes in all literature. :)

Good point about no men-only scenes in Austen, too. Not mentioned. Obviously.

RamblingRosa · 15/02/2011 08:55

Why Blackduck? As I say, I can't really remember it but I remember liking it.