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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sexism in Foulkes On Fiction

89 replies

charitygirl · 14/02/2011 15:18

Did anyone see this on Saturday - the theme was 'The Lover'? I settled in for a happy hour of 19th century literature, including lots by women, and had to turn off after about 15 minutes because I was nearly in tears!

The rot set in while they were discussing Tess of the D'Urbervilles - a book I admit I love a lot. I could not believe what the male talking heads (and they were all men) were saying:

  • Alain de Boton laughing blokily with Sebastian Foulkes about how Hardy was clearly sexually obsessed with Tess, and that the result was a character all men could get an erection for, particularly as she is so submissive and things 'just happen to her'. No! Men repeatedly choose to abuse her!
  • Foulkes describing the scene where Alec rapes Tess as 'Alec could no longer control his desire for her'. No! Alec chooses to rape her.
  • Simon Schama talking about how Tess is 'confused' by her body, and the 'effect it has on men'. No! Men use Tess's beauty to excuse their treatment of her - both Alec and Angel do this.
  • Foulkes describing how Hardy leaves it ambivalent as to whether Tess is raped or unenthusiastically consents to sex with Alec. No! Even given the typically vague 19th century description, it is clear that either (a) Tess acquiesces because she literally has no experience of non-acquiescence and is scared of Alec, or (b) is asleep. Either of which means, effectively, she is raped.

I'm not saying Hardy ws a 'feminist' in any recognisable sense, and Tess is not that realistic a character, perhaps. But I could not believe the sexist way they framed the discussion, the simplistic descriptions of rape, or the utter lack of sympathy for Tess (other than possibly as someone 'so sexy she's doomed'). I had to turn over then so maybe/hopefully the conversation improved.

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Prolesworth · 15/02/2011 20:34

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madwomanintheattic · 15/02/2011 20:33

lol tondelayo - has she be impregnated with his wisdom? Grin

zikes · 15/02/2011 20:18

Oh god, I so hated 'Charlotte Gray'. Hours of my life I'll never get back. Angry

Rhadegunde · 15/02/2011 20:17

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charitygirl · 15/02/2011 20:15

oh I am a fucking idiot. Havn;t checked but now you say it, it is Faulks isn't. CURSES!!!

Oh well fuck it, he doesnt deserve his name correctly spelled.

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LadyBiscuit · 15/02/2011 20:15

I'm glad other people heard the MF interview as well. He deserved every bit of the robust challenge he got and he couldn't defend it one iota.

Rhadegunde · 15/02/2011 20:14

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Rhadegunde · 15/02/2011 20:13

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Prolesworth · 15/02/2011 20:10

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Rhadegunde · 15/02/2011 20:09

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charitygirl · 15/02/2011 20:07

ROFL Tondelayo - I'm sure that should read 'The woman characters really made my dick hard'.

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seeker · 15/02/2011 20:04

"the week before she had given Sebastian Foulkes a hard time for not featuring enough (or any?) women, both authors and heroines, on the show"

She didn't give him a hard time - she asked him to justify his failure to include women in his programme about heroes, and he completely failed to do so!

Absolutely bloody typical that this shoulc be considered MF being "boringly feminist" rather than him being a misogynist bastard!

TondelayoSchwarzkopf · 15/02/2011 20:01

To be fair I've read an interview Kate Moss did with David Bowie in Q magazine* and she showed a lot more knowledge and critical analysis on her subject than AdB did on his. Smile

*Yes, I know probably ghost written but KM (the supermodel) does hang out with a lot of artists and has a child by a writer.

Smile
HerBeX · 15/02/2011 19:57

No really, I bet their excuse is that no-one would watch women debate literature.

So get in Kate Mosse, Kate Moss, Mariella and Jo and the E-less one (at least in literary terms, if not in other terms) would attract the wider audience of both men and Heat Magazine readers.

Job done.

HerBeX · 15/02/2011 19:55

No, Kate Moss.

I mean, why bother getting in an intelligent writer?

They don't fucking bother if they've got dicks.

Grin
TondelayoSchwarzkopf · 15/02/2011 19:53

I would so watch Kate Moss talking feminist lit crit with Jo Brand and Mariella...

oh...

Kate MOSSE

Grin
madwomanintheattic · 15/02/2011 19:42

justin bieber?

i'm having some real problems with irony this week. Grin

Prolesworth · 15/02/2011 19:32

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HerBeX · 15/02/2011 19:30

I thought Mariella Frostrup was extremely forbearing towards that self-important puffed up cockswinger.

Why can't she do a programme about books? Shall we lobby the BBC to let Mariella, Kate Moss and Jo Brand sit around talking about books because lets face it, all of them are going to make more sense that those dicks. And then they can have one man on with them. I nominate Richard E Grant, Tim Burton or Justin Bieber.

I am fucking sick of dickswinging men on the BBC. We are fucking half the licence fee payers, why are we not being represented? Why are our representation in literary fiction not being discussed intelligently?

madwomanintheattic · 15/02/2011 19:10

unrulysun - that's charlotte bleeding gray that is. they want it next for book club in these here parts and all i could think of to say was, 'oh, she dyes her pubes'. that's what charlotte gray reduced me to. haven't touched it in years. it's still on my shelf. free to a good home.

fortunately, we can't get this prog. maybe there is a god.

Unrulysun · 15/02/2011 18:03

I can't believe that anyone can buy SF's depictions of women. He seems to sit down to start his characterisation with a sheel boldly inscribed Angel/Whore, fill in the relevant columns, add a name and some breasts and proceed to checkout.

I went to see that literary quiz on R4 being recorded once and I was somewhat surprised that he managed to keep his hands off himself for 40 minutes. He shouldn't be allowed to say 'Jane Austen'.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf · 15/02/2011 17:27

Ha, just picked up a book in the library with the front cover review 'the women characters are brilliantly depicted' - Sebastian Faulks

Rhadegunde · 15/02/2011 15:40

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David51 · 15/02/2011 15:24

I've been unimpressed by Faulkes since that time when he criticised the Quran, only to hurriedly take it all back when he realised he might end up as the next Salman Rushdie

www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/aug/24/sebastian-faulks-attacks-quran

charitygirl · 15/02/2011 15:04

yy Dittany! I'm not blaming Emily Bronte but I hate how WH has become an example to 'prove' the point that 'women love bad boys/bastards'.

That's NOT the point the book makes.

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