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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Acquiescence

313 replies

AgeingGrace · 12/02/2011 20:49

Not sure whether this counts as a feminist discussion, but I'm giving it a try. I mentioned on another thread that, after seeing last year's TV programme about black-cab rapist John Worboys, I realised he 'had' me, too. I rang the helpline and the police were brilliant - they confirmed my story and discussed the case as much as I wanted to.

Bizarrely, the discovery was actually helpful to me. I'd been struggling with "denial of abuse" issues so, for me, this single episode (which I barely remember) represented all the other half-remembered and anxiously dismissed incidents of abuse that kept me questioning myself. I now accept that I have been more seriously abused, and more often, than I can consciously recognise. This denial is part of the issue I wish to discuss.

John Worboys sexually assaulted upwards of 400 women: probably hundreds more. His method was always the same - a little story, a little drinky that was drugged. Now this is what bothers me: up to 700 of us accepted that drink.

We trust London cabbies, sometimes literally with our lives. Worboys abused that position of trust. But - still! A cab driver gives you a drink, and you don't smell anything fishy? I bet none of us would have smiled and said "cheers" if an illegal minicab driver had done it. Not a single one of us rang the police, or the taxi office, to say "Driver number XXXX has just done something weird."

We trusted hansom cab drivers - rightly so. But why did we allow this trust to override our common sense? We all registered that this was "odd" behaviour, so why didn't we just get the hell out of there and press Dial? What happened to our natural alarm bells?

Answering for myself, I have to assume I was so deeply programmed to TRUST A MAN IN A POSITION OF HONOUR that I had no self-preservation instincts to go with that. In my case, this is the factor that led to my putting up with abuse in many situations. I was also, as mentioned, extremely willing to forget, deny, tell myself I'd got it wrong, etc, etc. I can trace this directly to my parental background. Did all 400 of Worboy's passengers come from families like mine?

How did Worboys know which women to trick?

I asked the cop how come so many women had bought his story. He said he wished he knew that - as more & more evidence came to light, they found it hard to believe he was getting to first base as easily as he did.

As some of you know, I'm committed to helping women in abusive relationships re/gain a sense of their own right to respect and safety. Most of you know at least something about the dynamics of abuse. Many people are conditioned to consider themselves less important than others; it's common for a woman to count herself less than a man. But 400 Londoners, each with enough independence to be getting a cab on her own at night ...? That's a lot!

If self-abandonment and self-denial are THAT prevalent amongst women, then feminism has a far bigger problem than I ever suspected.

I'm not sure if anybody's able or willing to pick this up - it's more of an emotional/psychological angle than this board's usual. It's both personally and politically interesting to me - what do you think?

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LeninGrad · 13/02/2011 19:09

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AgeingGrace · 13/02/2011 18:58

It is shocking, SQ. All the more so for being self-imposed or, at least, peer-imposed. Threads on here about wearing provocative clothes or asking a neighbour in for coffee being tantamount to 'asking for it', ffs!

No wonder we're (generically) prone to excessive self-doubt.

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SardineQueen · 13/02/2011 18:45

I really think that it needs a multifaceted approach

A change in society so that any sexual assault or sexual intimidation is seen as wrong

A change in the police etc so that all incidents are reported and treated properly

A change in the media so that rape myths are not propogated, sexual violence and intimidation is treated as the illegal behaviour that it it

A change amongst men so that this sort of behaviour is seen as unacceptable

All of this will lead automatically to women and girls feeling confident and able to speak out and report when something is done to them that is wrong.

I agree that it's important to treat our daughters to be able to say no and not to blame themselves and all the rest of it. But you need to draw a careful line so that it doesn't become the thing we see at the moment where if women don't act as they are "supposed" to then they must have wanted it or at least not minded that much.

On safety, I have always been quite cavalier. The bad things that have happened to me have been in "safe" situations, and the "unsafe" situations that I have been in have not resulted in any problems. So from my point of view it makes sense to avoid obvious risk (for any person - men women everyone) and to follow instincts. After that it's down to luck whether someone decides to target you. You can't live your life as if there is a rapist on every corner - as there isn't - and the rapist is more likely to be someone you know and trust. So all this "women be AFRAID" stuff gets on my tits frankly. All of the adverts and tv programs where the premise is that women are PREY and in mortal danger every time they leave the house creates a lifelong sense of fear and restriction of freedom and i refuse to live like that, with women under some kind of self-imposed taleban style regime, it's shocking when you think about it.

QueenBathsheba · 13/02/2011 18:44

Thank you Grace but I do think with me it's down to the fact that I was lucky because I had a good role model with my mother and a lot of very strong older women around me.

May be it's fight or flight, women programmed to flee, men to fight! Like you mention social conditioning tells men they have to act tough and women that they must defuse and calm situations, it translates accross the divide as women have few rights to complain if they don't stand their ground but they still risk aggression if they do. Until society actually starts to accept that women do not have to subscribe to the gender stereotypical over emotional role then everytime we stand up for ourselves we run the risk of male aggression.

For me the issue comes down to educating men, changing the way we bring up young women and risk assessment. Although some people will disagree, again I won't apologise because I really am that stroppy Grin

AgeingGrace · 13/02/2011 18:08

Oh WELL DONE, the 15-year-old Bathsheba! It's great that you had a strong enough sense of what's wrong - horrible to think of what could have happened.

trefusis, I'm glad you did report the flasher. Hopefully, some others of his 'audience' will have done as well. It is weird, isn't it, that you had some sense of needing to be polite because you'd nodded to him? I remember somebody doing it on a crowded morning Tube. Absolutely nobody said anything, including me :(

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AgeingGrace · 13/02/2011 17:56

Other posters have misquoted me at times - I'm sure it happens a lot. I have apologised to you.

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QueenBathsheba · 13/02/2011 17:54

Grace, what a shame that this girl did not take direct and swift action to stop this man.

IMO and it's only an opinion, I believe that women should feel justified in taking action and speaking out.

I was in a similar situation as a 15yr old working part time. The manager kept trying to corner me, asked smutty questions, too many compliments and one day followed me into a room. With no one present he tried to corner me so I couldn't leave the room. I could hear other staff in the corridor, so I shouted loud and clear, get off, you will never do this to me again and open the door. It worked, never tried it on again, but I do believe you have to think quickly, act quickly and be assertive, instinct is a huge factor though.

dittany · 13/02/2011 17:53

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trefusis · 13/02/2011 17:52

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dittany · 13/02/2011 17:47

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AgeingGrace · 13/02/2011 17:46

Right. After several deep breaths, I'm going to try and respond properly. This is an effort because I feel attacked by you, Dittany, and have to resist a strong urge to justify myself as you insist I should. In other circles, this feeling is known as being bullied.

To me, it looks unreasonable to say men should stop attacking women because it's blindingly obvious but still isn't happening. Yes, there is a serious issue of male entitlement. An associated issue, imo, centres around cultural values suggesting men should prove their strength at all opportunities - it doesn't take much extrapolation to build that into a directive towards violence.

However. The other side of the coin is female acquiescence. Other posters have rightly pointed out that men, too, fall prey to 'good manners' resulting in vulnerability but there's no doubt this is a bigger problem for women. It leads to weakness in work and social situations, as well as increased vulnerability to attack.

Not long ago, I gave a copy of "Why Does He Do That" to a friend's 21-year-old daughter. The girl's boss was routinely molesting her but she insisted on treating as the "joke" he said it was - even though she hated it and felt humilated. She didn't yell at him for fear of losing her job. The situation has now been resolved, but she never took strong action and she didn't read the book.

Her popularity / nice-girl image is more important to her than her dignity (or safety, by the sound of it).

You can say that men like him should stop it, but that won't happen while women think they should put up with it, will it?

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QueenBathsheba · 13/02/2011 17:46

Trefusis, that is terrible, have you reported the incident.

trefusis · 13/02/2011 17:44

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dittany · 13/02/2011 17:38

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QueenBathsheba · 13/02/2011 17:38

Dittany I'm sure all women see these attacks as something that men do to women, not just as individuals but as a class/group.

That doesn't mean that we should not take a short term pragmatic approach to risk and a long term approach to the education of men and try to tackle the reasons why so many women are affraid to follow their instincts and set boundaries, because(not suggesting grace)but many young girls have trouble with this.

AnyFucker · 13/02/2011 17:29

Take out a copyright, Dittany, if it makes you feel better

sheesh

< Leaves the thread for a bit >

dittany · 13/02/2011 17:27

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QueenBathsheba · 13/02/2011 17:27

Grace, I'm proud to be a stroppy humourless and frigid bitch Grin but seriously women are in a no win situation with how society views our behaviour and the victimisation of women.

There seems to be a common assumption that some women are victims and any women who isn't must display less femenine charateristics and bahaviour.

RealityIsKnockedUp · 13/02/2011 17:27

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AgeingGrace · 13/02/2011 17:24

Sorry for the unwelcome abbreviation. I think I copied from someone, a while ago. Consider it stopped.

I have the right to misquote you, as you have the right to correct me. Assuming this is a conversation not a lecture.

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AnyFucker · 13/02/2011 17:23

That was brusquer and colder than it needed to be, Dittany Confused

dittany · 13/02/2011 17:21

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dittany · 13/02/2011 17:20

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AgeingGrace · 13/02/2011 17:19

No, Dits, I just needed a quick soundbite whilst in a state of cognitive shock Wink

I agree that self-doubt (paraphrasing you again) appears to be a very strong element in this problem.

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dittany · 13/02/2011 17:19

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