Acquiescence

Until recently I worked with Key stage 1 and 2 children. It was quite revealing in terms of the different gender stereotypical behaviour.

It was evident even with such young children that girls are very keen to please and gain approval. They teneded to do this with passive, quiet and unassertive behaviour.

The boys were far more assertive and very driven by having their imeadiate need for attention met. They were physically boisterous, noisy and you could see in groups that they sought to establish a pecking order. Most of the boys wanted dominance.

I'm not sure how you can counter some of this. I spoke to one headmistress and she felt that more could be done to encourage girls to be assertive, but didn't offer suggestions for how this could be achieved.

It always seem to come back to what women could or should or do, how about aiming all this at those who assault or coerce? How about the message going out to them that it is despicable behaviour and society just won't stand for it.

Women telling men they are out of line when they are is part (and only part) of society just not standing for it. It is one of the ways that the message that the behaviour is despicable gets out.

I totally understand people being upset at the idea that the only thing that needs to happen is for women to be more assertive - that's madness. But when I read comments about how what has to happen is men need to just stop something I am left thinking "isn't that the point of telling them?" Social change doesn't just happen. I don't think looking at ways to change a situation is the same as laying blame for it.

In any case I think women should be (very generally) more assertive. Apart from the fact that being compliant doesn't stop women from being attacked, acquiescence is about subsuming part of your character because the other person is supposedly more important, and that's just crap.

So even if it has no impact on whether women are assaulted or not, I do think we should be teaching our daughters to stand up for themselves more.

No, none of those guys lose sleep....I imagine it's a victory for them. But the first boy I slept with when I was nearly 17 was delightful. We were together for three months and I made the suggestion and he checked, checked and checked again that it was really what I wanted. Lovely....still think of him .

No, none of those guys lose sleep....I imagine it's a victory for them. But the first boy I slept with when I was nearly 17 was delightful. We were together for three months and I made the suggestion and he checked, checked and checked again that it was really what I wanted. Lovely....still think of him .

Totally shallow and off topic.

Saw the title to this thread and hoped it was for baby names.

WandersOffToBeShallowElsewhereTiggaxx

Also I too have been coerced into encounters I didn't want because I was worried about offending and too embarrassed to say no because saying no was rude or whatever. I bet none of those guys have lost a seconds sleep over the coercion either.

But I bet the man from that thread would never in a million years see what he did as rape.

Yes, I can't believe for one second that a man doesn't know when he's raping someone.

I agree Lenin, but whilst we wait for that to happen we need to ensure our daughters are equipped to deal with these idiots. My boys are being educated all the way along, but meeting other boys it's simply not the case.

I had a convo with a friend, a clever friend, re Helena Kennedy's involvement in the Assange case. My friend spouted nonsense like some women do make it up, rape is a grey area like I used to, women still believe that other women make it up or are confused, and that some men don't know they are committing rape.

I agree that in some situations, like rape, it wouldn't matter how you behaved....nothing a victim can do has an effect on the criminal. I'm thinking more about the subtle assaults or coercion. I'm not sure the times that I submitted to do things I didn't really want was about fear of physical harm, but more about not wanting to offend.

In the case of the vile taxi driver, seems to me he possibly tried it on with every lone woman that entered into his cab. These women only had a couple of things in common, they were women and they got into his taxi.

SQ...

At twelve I sat in John Lewis Cafe waiting for my parents to get the food, reserving a table. A man, very scruffy possibly homeless, sat on the table. I told him my parents were joining me and he should sit elsewhere. He refused saying there was enough room for him, there was. I pointed to the high breakfast bar type area and said he should sit there. I was very very confident, this didn't stop me at 16 being a pushover, giving boys BJs (only three, not every guy I laid eyes on) under duress. I think that stems from self worth, not just the ability to say no, but recognising that asking something of you that you don't want to give is the part at which a situation becomes tricky....not at the part when you have to refuse, but the person insisting that is the bad person. I wonder if my popularity had been at stake with the homeless guy whether I would have been so insistent?

Should expand - my friend with DDs has much older children than me and I think she is a great parent and person, so when she said she thought it sounded like a good idea I thought I might have hit on something

yes now more than ever.
I'm reading Charlotte Bronte's Villete. Just read this:
" In a few terse phrases he told me his opinion of, and feeling towards, the actress: he judged her as a woman, not an artist: it was a branding judgement"

Women have always been "women" or "wimmin" first and foremost. Whatever they do or say is always secondary to that.

Chandon that was a great post 8.22

What I plan to do (and my friend with DDs thought was a good idea when I told her, and she's going to do it) is to do some kind of role play which involves the DDs saying NO! - moving away (eg on a bus) - that sort of thing.

Because I know that I have trouble saying this, and I know from experience that once you have done something once it becomes easier. And I hope that if they have done it once in a safe environment - with me - then they will be able to act on their instincts if something happens. Basically I don't want them to sit there like Chandon or me or all of the untold numbers of children who were polite and compliant and did not know what on earth to do.

It sounds OTT to me (role play? for chrissakes! I'm not a role play person ) BUT I need to do something and that's the best I can think of.

I said 'don't call me woman' he said ' oh gawd, you are one aren't you' I said 'you're trying to insult me saying 'woman' being a woman is a wonderful thing, do not try and insult me with my gender'....

I guess this all goes back to the objectification of women...you're either available or you're not. We lose the woman behind our judgement of her looks, that's why the objectification argument is more valid now than ever.

Exactly Lenin, it's lose-lose for women whichever mannerisms they adopt.

The only way out of this pickle is... Revolution

I told him that being a woman was a wonderful thing and not to try to insult me with my gender!

haha! DId you really. That's brilliant

WE have surprises not secrets too! And we do the look at his face! Also we have no kisses or cuddles that they don't want....you sounds like a fab parent Lenin!!

"I was very boyish and think it did work a bit but of course it tips into 'dyke' which although factually correct is not what you want shouted down the street at you." Yes quite.

So we're either pigeon holed into attractive, up for it, ready to be had.....or not.