A favour...

final aim? people to be treated as people, not men or women. other than the physical ability to bear and feed children, i see no differences between men and women that have not been carefully socially constructed.

i want to see equal numbers of men and women making the decision to stay at home and raise children, and equal numbers of men and women choosing to work full time to support their families. and a society that doesn't bat an eyelid at those choices.

i want a society that does not pressure women to alter their shape and colour their faces and hair to conform to a narrow measure of what is deemed to be 'attractive'. and i want a society that celebrates individuality in all its forms, not binary conformity to the norm.

i want men and women to have active caring roles in equal measure. i want men and women to take part in science, engineering and law in equal measure. i want male and female teachers working alongside each other in primary schools and getting equally promoted to headships.

i want men to look at their partners and see an equal, whatever their gender. i want women to look at their partners and see an equal. i don't want women to look at their husbands and see the final arbiter.

i want everyone to be a feminist.

i don't want much, me.

what do you want, deepheat? you've had 12 years of apparently maintaining the status quo, despite your supposed misgivings. any chance you're going to make a difference?

I've seen your posts on other boards Deepheat and found them measured and thoughtful, so I cannot see why you received a hostile biscuit.

For me, feminism is about recognising that patriarchical structures exist and not pretending otherwise. I have no time for people who think that all the battles have been won, because that is so far from the truth as to be laughable. So in my daily life and through my work, it is about challenging that patriarchy and trying to dissemble it, with the eventual goal of men and women being treated as equals.

I agree with the poster who says that she doesn't think men and women are inherently different. However, we are certainly conditioned differently through our social constructs.

I would like to see more male feminists, because history has proved that change happens when the powerful group challenges its own dominance and dismantles it. Ergo, several men of my acquaintance (including my H) are better feminists than some women I know.

I also have low tolerance for what has been coined "choice feminism" and I think this is a curious backlash to the original ideas of feminism. Unfortunately, lots of younger women and men seem to think that feminism is all about a woman having choices, even when those choices actually hurt other women and the cause of feminism generally. I am thinking particularly of women who enter the sex industry in all its forms.

It still feels like a feminist taboo at times to admit that women hurt other women through their choices, but I have no ideological resistance to this admission, because it is a truth I recognise every day - and often on MN, when there are threads about lapdancing clubs, escorts and porn use.

Some personal comment about your own situation. I find it profoundly depressing that a young woman (your DW) believes that you should be the "leader" of the house or that men should be the final arbiter on key decisions. If my H had tried to give me that responsibility, I would have refused it though, as would my H if he had been offered your deal (once he had fainted and been revived by smelling salts ).

I'd be intrigued at why your wife feels the way she does and how feminism has come to pass her by? And of particular pertinence, why you accepted that deal? Your role in rejecting this is a prime example of what I referred to earlier in this post - had you refused the patriarchical role in your household, you would be a member of a dominant group refuting that dominance.

Celebrating the difference between men and women implies that there is a set difference and that men and women, to be celebrated, must conform to it. If you enjoy performing male gender and your wife enjoys performing female gender then it is not a big deal for the two of you but you have to realise that not everyone wants to live that way. For example, I am a woman and if you met me you would assume I am female. I wouldn't be offended if you made that assumption and outside of a feminist discussion I wouldn't correct you, but I don't see myself as female.

Anyway, as a radical feminist, to me the aim of feminism should be eradicating societal pressure to perform gender, which I feel would get rid of most of the problems that face women, men and children. Also to recognise the actual innate differences between men and women: women are the ones who can bear children, and women are smaller than men, which contributes a lot to the oppression of women.

Hi deepheat

Radical feminism is a philosophy emphasising the patriarchal roots of inequality between women and men, or, more particularly, social/ political/ cultural etc. dominance of women by men, therefore oppressing women and privileging men.

Radical actually means ?getting to the root? which opposes existing political and social organisations in general because it is essentially tied to patriarchy. Thus, radical feminists tend to be cynical of political action within the current system, and instead support cultural change that undermines patriarchy and connected hierarchical structures.

Radical feminism opposes patriarchy, not men.

Hi deepheat

I don't agree with you that "the differences are fundamental" between men and women, in fact I am pretty much of the opinion that there are very few differences to speak of. Obviously one lot of us has breasts and can feed babies and has ovaries and a uterus (usually) and can theoretically become pregnant and give birth, and the other lot have testes and a penis and generally more facial hair etc (obviously varying between races etc).

But in terms of important differences that should determine anything much about day to day life - nah, not really. To an extent I imagine that one day in the future (which will obviously be a feminist utopia :)) people will look back and laugh as much at the way we try to ascribe loads of differences to men and women as we now look back (mostly) aghast at the theories of racial differences.

The aims of feminism for me are for men and women to live as people primarily, in an equal state, for gendered violence against women to end, for those structures of society that have been set up to favour men or disadvantage women to be reorganised, to have equal representation for men and women in parliament...think that's the main few.

The final destination is equality of opportunity. Not being treated the same, because we're not the same, but being treated with equal fairness. That's how I'd define feminism.