Anti-marital sex conspiracy?

I think some of it may come from how people were brought up with sex; I've had a relationship where I was told "you're not getting any".

And no, this wasn't about housework or sharing... other than the fact I didn't want to spend every weekend with her parents. We both worked double-day shifts, and when she was on an early, or half day she'd go to her M&D till evening, so I'd do the washing/ironing & so on...

"... you're not getting any"

gets a variety of responses:
[Shrug] not bothered; that got annoyance
"Well, I shan't ask again"; I was then accused of neglecting her.
"You're using it as a bargaining chip?"; "are you calling me a tart?" No, I wasn't.
"well, not from you, anyway." and in the end we separated and then divorced.

I have been married 7 years but dont see sex as any different to before I was married. It might be different for us those as we are both only 26. I dont think being married has to change your sex life, unless you want it to.

I see Omarians point though as I luckily get loadas of time to myself and have a similar life to pre DCS. I still go clubbing and out with my friends. I get to go out and dance and feek sexy and that makes me feel in the mood for sex when I am at home and through the week. I think its very important when you have kids to have a decent amount of time to pursue your own interests be that reading a book or going for a drink. Then you dont lose sight of yourself or stop seeing yourself as a sexual being.

Orm I'm just interested in women (or men) not feeling that they have to conform to whatever is the prevailing norm, either within society, or within groups. I think Mumsnet is an example of a group, where it can be quite difficult for some people to disagree with the prevailing opinion, but it's often easier to do that on here, than in RL.

I liken this thread to a group of men having a braying and negative conversation about their female partners. The one in the group who has the courage to say "I don't feel that way about my wife" deserves respect.

I think it's revealing that the OP has the courage to question this norm that has developed amongst her group of friends and realise that she's being affected by it, especially the realisation that she was feeling oddly triumphant at rebuffing her H. In recognising this, she is acknowledging the cultural pressure she has felt to conform to this new "norm".

I dislike anyone feeling as though they have to be "the same" and when that pressure starts to intrude on our lives and choices, I think it needs questioning.

Anyway the OP was asking 'If so, who made that rule?' and I was attempting an answer. It has nothing to do with being a Les Dawson stereotype or not being allowed to enjoy sex. Quite the contrary IME.

Which suggests that we shouldn't talk about sex at all I guess.

Yes but as you say Orm we're not all clones and what the OP is describing is a norm that has developed, that causes her discomfort.

Have you thought about the inverse pressure, for someone who feels differently, in that situation? How difficult it might be for the OP to say "actually I don't feel like that?"

The "ladette" culture the OP describes when her and her friends were younger no doubt produced a pressure to be constantly up for sex. That norm would have led to discomfort if anyone had raised their head above the parapet and said "not me!"

This norm is no different. There is pressure both ways and it can be really difficult for a woman to stand apart from the herd and say that she feels differently, especially when the whole subject is being treated with humour. Departing from the norm can have the effect of telling a bad joke; shocked silence and resentment that the OP isn't joining in.

I don't think the pressure you describe is all one way, not by a long chalk.

It's not pride, it's guilt. We feel guilty for not wanting constant sex, so we make jokes about it and comfort ourselves that everyone is the same.

I completely get that, Orm. Our sexuality is just one of the things we have/do, it's not the whole of us and everyone does have other needs. Much as I adore and fancy DH, sometimes I am so desperate to just READ A BOOK, BY MYSELF.

Still, I get the OP's original point that it is odd, especially if in an ostensibly good and stable relationship, to seem to take a kind of pride in evading sex.

Sorry if that was a rant. This subject makes me cross.

And fwiw my DH is my greatest fan - honestly! I couldn't be with anyone who valued or admired me more than he does.

Yes eldritch I do. The mainsteam is now to be aspire to be sexy and gorgeous rather than just to be attractive. Everyone has to be 'up for it' all the time to be normal and healthy - if you aren't there is something wrong with you.

I can tell you exactly why i don't want sex most of the time. I am knackered - not just from housework, but also because the life I live gives me no time to be ME - just me, not mummy, not wife, not employee, not dutiful daughter. When I get those rare precious moments of free time I want to do things for me and me alone. I don't want to spend it getting sweaty with DH. I am not highly-sexed, never have been, but I do enjoy it when we get down to it but given the choice I'd rather do something that I really want to, not something that people seem to think I should want to. Nothing to do with repressing my sexuality because I am wife! Because I am a human being with the right to choose what I do with my free time. We aren't all clones.

Well, so would I frankly. I have seen it happen though, and it is excruciating. Have a quick gander through Relationships: total eye- opener.

Some women do live with constant, draining, low-level attacks on their self-esteem from male partners who feel entitled to something or someone better.

do they really? i would rather be on my own than put up with this.

But don't you also think that the pressure all around us to be sexual and conform to unattainable ideals in appearance, grooming etc. can contribute to this? A sort of helplessness that one is never going to be good enough/appreciated? I can see that where that is a factor there could be a defiant pride in doing the opposite of what societal pressure mandates, or some kind of over-compensation. Some women do live with constant, draining, low-level attacks on their self-esteem from male partners who feel entitled to something or someone better.

Orm I must stress, I am responding to the OP's initial post and not wider issues about age-related low libidoes or asexuality. I agree with HerBex though that men also suffer from the stereotype (and social conditioning) that they must be ever-ready for sex.

As we have also seen from the Relationships board, there are lots of women living in sexless relationships with men who won't have intimacy. Usually, those women are told by several posters that they are suffering a form of abuse, when I think it is far more complex.

WRT the issues in this thread, what's the effect of that resentment, if it results in sex being used as a bartering mechanism? It's not the adult way of expressing dissatisfaction with the relationship, is it? It's a very passive-aggressive tool and if a woman actually wants to have a fulfilling sex life at some point, ultimately self-defeating. However, if either party doesn't actually want to have sex again, but would prefer not to be open about that choice, there is some pay-off in letting the source and the cause of the resentment continue.

It frustrates me that relationships get to this point, when it should be perfectly obvious without having to be told, that work should be shared evenly, or else there will be resentment. It's not rocket science, but equally there is nothing to be gained from putting up with this and expressing the resentment indirectly, unless it is hiding a very different choice or pay-off.

In the UK, sex is never the only power a woman can enact in a relationship. The power to leave a lazy, selfish, sexually inadequate man, is a far greater power.

i think its definitely true that the more a man does around the house the more sex his wife/girlfriend will want to have with him.

my ex did bugger all round the house and i felt like his mum or carer - not sexy and probably as a result i just didn't fancy him and sex always felt like a chore.

DH in contrast does a lot, despite working ft and me being at home, and it just makes me love and appreciate him more, which naturally = more sex.

i don't think women would "withhold" sex if they were 100% happy in the relationship.

Yes that's also true OI.

But also, men suffer the same tyranny. Not every bloke wants sex every day in his thirties either. But the myth is that they're always desperate for it.

"Is it that married women "aren't allowed" to enjoy sex? "

Who made the rules that women, married or otherwise, have to want lots of sex? I think that pretending that a woman's libido alway stays as active and lively as it was when she was a 20 yr old (assuming it was even then) is a kind of tyranny that suits men very well. Then if your partner doesn't want sex you can put it down to something being wrong and it being her fault.

Oh yes, often the reason women lose desire for the men they are with, is because the men treat them like shit.

They don't think the men treat them like shit and the men certainly don't think they treat them ike shit; but let's face it, if you are doing 80% of the shitwork in the house and he has 15 hours a week more leisure time than you do, even if you tell yourself that he does far more housework than your friends' husbands, he is still treating you like shit and I think that at some deep unconscious level, women are aware of this and deeply resentful of it.

And that's a massive passion-killer. Who feels desire and lust and the urge to play nicely with someone who is exploiting them?

And it's not discussed because housework is loudly deemed to be far too trivial to discuss as a real issue. Because women do most of it. The three things which were always quoted as the cause of marital conflict were: money, sex, children. Housework is simply ignored, but I really strongly believe that that should be added to the list, because IME and IMO, it's the single biggest resentment that most women have in their relationships. And it goes unrecognised both by themselves and by the men they're with.

I also agree with WWIFN overall too. However, I think that "unpicking why a woman is enabling that laziness" takes the onus away from the man improving his behaviour. It once more puts the onus on the woman either changing her behaviour or her outlook, when the man is at fault.

I do agree that using sex as a weapon isn't good for anyone but I genuinely think in some cases that the woman doesn't want sex with her partner because of the way he is treating her. So in that scenario is it a bargaining tool or is it a real state of affairs?

Yes HerBex and I think it's better to look at why for some women, sex is her only perceived source of power and examine the root causes of that perception - or reality, in some cases. Like you, I often despair about the bargains younger women seem to make on MN, about all sorts of issues in their romantic relationships.

I agree with WWIFN to some extent.

And everyone else as well.

Sex is still seen as the one area where women actually have some power - in many relationships, the only area. This horrible gatekeeper role, is one which is forced on them and in which many collude. I think a lot of women would prefer to have a healthy happy sex life and a man who does his fair share of child care and housework than to have the power of with-holdins sex, which is a pretty joyless power IMO. Unfortunately, for many women the option of a man who does his fair share of housework and treates them with respect, isn't on offer, so they revert to that gatekeeper role often against their will, but not being able to see any other option.

And of course, for many women - shockingly many - sex just isn't that good. How many threads have I read on MN from women much younger than me, who believe they can't have orgasms, or that sex isn't that good. It's like the sexual revolution never happened. And if sex is a boring intrusion, rather than a fantastic joy, then of course you're going to find it easier to use it as a negotiation tool than you would, if you wanted it as much as your partner did, because you are getting just as much pleasure from it.

Well it would be in my case Dittany and the OP seems to confirming this too, about her own desires and those of her friends, when she knew them years ago. Very few human beings are truly asexual, although there are some. If these women's relationships are monogamous and they have, in the past enjoyed sex then yes, I assume they will want to have fulfilling sex lives again at some point.