Feminism and socialism

I guess you have to disentangle economic beliefs and social beliefs.

There are definitely a fair sprinkling of Conservative party members who are economically right wing but socially liberal (many right wing libertarians would fall into this camp). I don't see that there would be any reason that it would be illogical for a feminist to take this position.

There are plenty of people (including historically in the Labour party) who are economically left, but socially conservative. And obv. from your experiences SuperiorMinge, SGB et al there are plenty of them around.

I think that socialism does have a definite authoritarian strain to it that makes it prone to social conservatism.

I'd definitely consider myself an anarchist feminist - seeing it as important for both women's liberation and wider equality to dismantle all hierarchies, not just replace capitalist hierarchical systems with socialist ones (which still, IMO, generally have men at the top & women at the bottom).

Find this v interesting, esp. the idea of 'feminist socialist' instead of 'socialist-feminist'. That was meant to distinguish s/f from radical feminism, but IMO has ended up meaning "a socialist who takes absolutely no account of gender in structuring capitalism, but who is a woman who serves to cover for the sexism of her male 'comrades'". I've been calling myself a feminist socialist for some time. Sources close to the Dave Douglass/Heather Downs row, I mean debate, in Weekly Worker, give some indication of what f/s's have to contend with in the socialist movement. And I, I mean she, never even started on Assange and the rape apologists....SuperiorMinge, I am liking your words.

I tied myself up in knots thinking that one out

LOL at "I'm sure there are misogynists in all movements. (except feminism, that wouldn't work.)"

In theory, feminism is more compatible with socialism than conservatism.

In practice, socialism fails to deliver enough for women.

People being sexist within a movement doesn't mean that the politics behind it are incompatible though. I'm sure there are misogynists in all movements. (except feminism, that wouldn't work.)

I seem more commonality with socialism and feminism due to collectivity. Less with Marxism due to the focus on class as the only structure, but then post-Marxism moves away from this. Liberalism would depend on the breed for me, but its individualism is problematic for me. Anarchism and feminism I get, but then that would be the versions that lead to collectivism, where there is commonality with socialism.

I agree with the points made about sexism on the left (cf Tommy Sheridan, Assange ). In that Women documentary that was on last year Robin Morgan spoke about how the second wave was borne out of women's experiences of sexism in left wing activism in the late 60s/early 70s (although I don't think she was claiming that that was the only stimulus, but certainly an important one).

But going back to the OP, I agree with AliceWorld that feminism and conservatism-with-a-small-c are inherently incompatible. I remain unconvinced though that focusing on class will bring about gender equality (as revolutionary marxists seem to think). Feminism has as much - maybe more? - of an affinity with liberalism as it does with socialism, I would have thought.

Anyway I don't have anything new to contribute but am lurking with interest

I agree with you superior.

Watching a union bash on the telly the other day - it was the RMT and they showed various (white male) speakers including bob crowe - I said to DH "do these look like men with a keen interest in the problems faced by women?" and the answer was quite obviously "no".

I recently followed an exchange of letters in the Weekly Worker, following an article about the 8 year old who had been raped and tbh I was shocked by the rape myths they were promoting. And more recently than that, another letter was published which just repeated the tired old "sadly, some women lie about rape" line as if it were the most important fact about rape everyone needs to know.

It made me realise that under socialism, women comrades will still be making the tea while the male comrades will be getting on with the important work of revolution. Because these male dominated lefty parties, are no more interested in our half of humanity, than bog standard tories are. And when you challenge them on their male privilege, they refuse to recognise it, preferring to accuse you of being a bourgeois feminist because then they can dismiss all discussion of specifically female problems, as bourgeois deviations.

The wankers.

Mm. 'My enemy's enemy is my friend' is something you can only take so far, really.

I have been lurking with interest on the other thread.

For me, my feminism is very connected to my socialism. I tend to think that collective activity for the common good, with higher taxes and cheaper or free public services, and with measures aiming to reduce inequalities due to gender, sexualilty, class, wealth, race etc, is a better way of organising society than the alternatives. That's my understanding of socialism, and my feminism fits right in there.

But that doesn't mean I don't think you can be a right wing feminist, and there are some on mumsnet.

I agree with SGB that there are a lot of anti-feminist left wing men.

I would say that left wing feminism also has a lot in common with anarchism, and they have often been linked. Germaine Greer considers herself to be an anarchist and a feminist.

Some of the ideas being put forward on the SAHM thread in this section about work and rewards for work I would consider to fall in line with anarchist thought rather than socialist thought.

So can right wing men though, SGB. I don't know does their 'wing' have much to do with it.

I am a feminist but don't consider myself a socialist and have had far too many negative experiences with sexist leftwing men to have much faith in the 'joint enterprise' idea.
Some leftwing men can be extremely antifeminist.

See how I look at it.

Women are second class to the men in their sphere, no matter what class they are born into, how much money they have.

All women suffer street harrassment, sexual assault and so on, being one "type" or another does not shield you.

Most women will look at the position of women around the world and see that a lot of them have the shitty end of the stick.

Many women in the UK will have been on the receiving end of sexism at work, or encountered it at school, and so on.

All women therefore can see the light (as it were) and be feminists, irrespective of their political leanings.

This thread has the makings of a real ding dong.
Can we add religion into the mix? It'll have it all then

Feminism goes with socialism because both are the correct, enlightened positions to take