Rejecting Christian Beliefs

Just to add, for anyone who might be interested, Elizabeth Fiorenza-Schussler and Antionette Wire are good feminist New Testament critics, and Claudia Camp's work on Proverbs is fantastic. I have been taught by a fabulous feminist Old Testament academic.

Yes, I've read some Mary Daly - just ordered another book called 'Sexism and God-Language' so I'm looking forward to reading that. I've also been reading some amazing feminist non-violent models of atonement theory; there are people some doing some very good work out there. And yes, to a large degree I think you're absolutely right - religion can be very toxic and can be used to validate all sorts of exploitation and brokenness. There's absolutely no way that I'd ever say to anyone that Christianity means accepting male headship or that it means you have to stay in an abusive relationship.

But the problem is (IMO anyway) that it comes down to whether you believe it (the Christian faith itself, not all the crap that gets attached to it). When I stand up in church every week and say the Creed (I'm CofE), I mean every word of it, and I love it. Which is why I can't walk away, however much my beloved Christ has been exploited to exploit others. As to whether I could believe in xyz without Chistian faith, the honest answer is that I guess so, but I'd be a different person.

What I was trying to say is that for me, my Christian faith isn't a thing I believe in amongst other things, but the foundation for all my beliefs, in a way that goes beyond the 'WWJD' crash-course in Christian ethics.

Extending - sounds like you're doing some very cool stuff!

Better get on - I'm working on a translation of Matthew's gospel tonight - will creatively avoid gendered language!

I've read Mary Daly. She explores church history but not the Bible itself, or at least, not in its context. Her arguments are interesting but not particularly strong.

I agree that perhaps it would be right to just remove gender pronouns. Jesus was man, as were the apostles, because, as has been said before, women of the time would not have been listened to.

As part of my research I will be visiting an African matriarchal culture for whom christianity is a very vibrant part of their identity. I'm looking forward to seeing how God is viewed in a culture very different to my own.

I will restate, the Bible, particularly when read fully and understood within context, is radically empowering of women and we should not throw out the baby (God and the scriptures) with the bath water (organised christianity in the western world over the last centuries).

Dittany, if I am prepared to explore another view point, will you too read Psalms, the gospels and the letters.

I was brought up a Christian but for me I realised about the age of 13 how wrong it was for me. How oppressive it was for females, everywhere. I was brought up Catholic. Now I don't want to be the Pope but I resent the fact that I could not be Pope.

I think removing the gender pronoun is only right.

I agree with you, Clockface. I, too, have already started down the road of Biblical scholarship and am hoping to begin postgraduate research on the very issues we're discussing.

Yes, I use the pronoun 'he' when speaking about God - this is a product of my own upbringing in a strict evangelical sect. But also reflects the fact that I am fortunate to not have a negative view of the paternal nature of God. Although, combined with Biblical evidence, I get very excited about the maternal nature of God, too! I find attempts to remove gender pronouns to be a little desperate and I never feel that they read very well. I am working hard, in a leadership position in an evangelical arm of the church, to counteract the damage done to christianity by the church, particularly on the subject of male dominance and power.

I have tried to share what I believe and I'm sorry if I've ever come over as believing that 'I know better' than anyone else. We all have our own paths to tread and I've just been sharing mine. I believe these things with a passion!

Dittany, re. the mystery thing - yes, you're right, there are loads of things I believe in that aren't mysterious at all. But my point is that God isn't one of those, because God is above and apart from everything else. Believing in God can't be compared to beleiving in feminism, or rights for asylum seekers, or whatever else. It's the belief in God that validates all the other beliefs for me.

Sorry, Kay - don't want to derail your thread!

Obviously it's your journey Kay, and you may find you are able to come back to Christianity, but in a different way.

I had to stop being an evangelical because I couldn't feel at all at ease with the required language, behaviours and mindset.

While I feel I have a relationship with God, I tend to find the church doesn't actually enhance that. But I still go, for various reasons. (Anglican now)

good luck to you Kay

Not read the other posts, so apologies if this has been mentioned, but I'd take a long hard look at what you want to walk away from - the Christian faith in its purest form (love God, love your neighbour, help the poor) or from man-made religion.

I personally know which one I can live without, and which one I'd never abandon.

Dittany I'm not saying it has to be male dominated now. Don't extrapolate.

In the same way as Christianity worked with slavery to begin with, but that Christians came to understand it was wrong, ditto attitudes to women. It takes a while for society to catch up with the radical ideas actually presented and findable in original Christianity. And as you should know, he did include women in his coterie.

Yes of course it's been male dominated to a dreadful extent - but it's taken until the 20th century for things to start to change. Unfortunately it hasnt been driven by Christians much... But there is still too much for the male dominated church hierarchy to lose.

can I ask what type of church your dh is involved with? Not sure if you want to say..

It may make it difficult for your marriage that you have changed. Is it a church (something like Am evangelist style IME?) which would also consider the dh as head of the home?

Hmmm...I'm another one who's Christian and feminist, although I recognise that there are different interpretations and gradations of feminism, and there are feminists who wouldn't call me a 'real' feminist....just as there are inrerpretations and gradations of Christianity and there are undoudtedly those who wouldn't call me a 'real' Christian!

Yes, the church is veeeeery androcentric, even the nice liberal parts of it. What it comes down to, to me is this:

I believe it's true - I believe that Jesus was God incarnate, the saviour of the world. If I didn't believe that, there'd be no point being a Christian.

And yes, of course it's a mystery - if it weren't, it wouldn't be worth believing in. If I could fully explicate God, I'd not be explicating God but an idol of my own making.

And...I believe in 'progressive revelation' (i.e. change), the 'long, winding road' towards a better understanding of God. I believe that the ordinaton of women was a step along that road, and that women bishops will be the next step.

And also - if all the women / feminists left the church, it really would be androcentric! And I love it too much to be part of its demise.

And, while I'm on it, gendered personal pronouns really get my goat! I an reading a lot of 20th century theology at the moment and am getting sick to the back teeth of reading about 'the relation between God and man'...grrrr. The good news (well, it'll make me feel better, anyway) is that I am going to sit an exam this summer in which I can write as a Christian feminist. So I've got a bit of a right to reply!

As an aside (sorry if I'm rambling), I'm thinking about going into academic biblical scholarship as well as being ordained. It's saddening that the vast majority of biblical scholars are male. So the way in which theology is being done that shapes the mind of the church and has an impact on what is peached from the pulpit, is all very androcentric. And again, I care too much about the church to let that be the status quo. So I'm applying to a biblical doctorate after my degree....yikes! It'll be hard work but a labour of love, not only of the bible itself but also of the people who might benefit from it, esp. women.

But in that society Dittany, how effectively would 12 women have got his message out? They simply would not have been heard.

Sorry, dittany, completely disagree.

Been on a long journey on this one, and the misconceptions regarding God are definitely man made. Sure, some will, and do, twist arguments to continually exert mans power over woman. But, this was not Gods intention.

I'm not arguing that God represents women, who does he need to represent women to? But God is a God for women and for the empowerment of women, as much as God is a God for men. As said before, God is above and beyond gender, to try and put him within these arguments, and therefore reject him, is to give way to the male dominated hierarchy of the church over the last few centuries.

Sad to say, but don't confuse God with Church!

God is God - do we need to define 'him' in these terms. 'He' is beyond gender. We understand 'him' in gender terms for the sake of our own understanding. Perhaps because 'father' is supposed to be that loving, caring, protective parent. The problem comes that this picture has been abused and distorted throughout the centuries to a point where the maleness and paternity of God has been used to control and exert power.

We need to get back to original understanding which requires further reading and study.

I read 'The Shack' recently, and whilst disappointed in the over simplification of some of its ideas, I found the different expressions of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, defined by the persons own understanding, quite interesting.

hang on then. what does "and of the father, and of the son, and of the holy ghost" mean?

what about "our father who art in heaven"

YOu might have been able to convince yourself that God is not a "he" MuminScotland, but I can tell you that children all over the world believe he's a he, as I did as a child. Everyone I'D ever spoken to about God referred to him as a "he"

Hmm, I feel for you! I'm fortunate to have a husband who understands and believes my point of view. However, I'm not so sure about my own church leaders, even though I come from a denomination of the christian church that has welcomed women leaders. I have to remind myself that they are human, and as such, do not define my faith!

A useful book I read recently, when exploring my own leadership role is 'Why Not Women?' by Cunningham/Hamilton. I was also recommended another book 'I Suffer Not a Woman' but I have struggled to find this. NB this latter title is based on language used in the Authorised Version and should not be read as a negative statement!

I hope you are able to re-find God and set aside all the dross that is associated with the patriarchal church of our society!