Rejecting Christian Beliefs

Dittany that is hysterical. The spanish inquisition killed far more men, than women.

The crusades, men faught and died.

The Romans and the church supressed and persecuted the Cathers, not just the women, but the men too!

Kay - I left Christianity for different reasons than you, but just wanted to day that the day I left god behind and took responsibility for my own life, I found a true and wonderful peace - the kind I had ironically been hoping to find through Jesus!

I hope you find the same kind of peace, and a new faith in yourself.

Dittany it's such a sweeping generalisation to suggest people with faith in God have no (or don't use) critical thinking. Theologians and philosophers alike are hardly renowned for their lacksadaisical approach to critical thinking. If all the smart people were just found on one side of the debate, it would all have been sorted centuries ago and we'd be having a cup of tea.

hmm. x-post. Thread moved fast.

Grew up with all that equal-but-different stuff, could never swallow it.
Iggi2011, were you a christian? I don't know what the christian faith tells you, I have no idea what doctrines you are taught.

I am a women though and unless I grow a cock and develop a deep voice, I guess I'll always be different to the men in my life

For me it is about accepting that God created an opposite of man, he created eve to complement adam. She wasn't less of a person, she was different. Womens strength is drawn from those differences.

To me all by itself that sentence is the epitome of how the Christian (and Jewish and Islamic) faith is built on a view of women as the other. It's also contradicted by what we see in nature.

Woman came after man to complement him? How is that a feminist view point? Women's strength is drawn from our differences from men? Not anything we are in our own right, regardless of men's strengths? For those of us who are a damn sight better at the things that are typical men's strengths than most men and not so good at the things that are our "differences" do we have no strength as "women"?

In nature it can't be seen that the female of the species came from the male. Females were not created to complement an already existing male. If anything, it's the other way around (not that it's really that straight forward, but it's women who hold the full set, not men).

that there

I think you should think twice about what you're doing. The feminists do not go to the religious section to tell women to get out of patriarchal religion and that it is harming them even if that's what we think. People should be able to make up their own minds without outside pressure

Actually I only posted on this thread to make the point that it wasn't god who was incompatible with feminism.

Ditany you are very aggressive in your attitude towards the church. I have read several of your posts on other threads, you are very anti-god, so fine, but OP needs an easy transition. People are not church going christians on a monday and atheists by thursday.

It's up to OP if she thinks her church is patriarchal and opts out. I don't attend church and I'm not christian I posted to highlight that their is a third way less radical than throwing up an entire life time of faith in god.

Maybe she means "Sexism and God-Talk" - that's by Rosemary R Ruether though.
Grew up with all that equal-but-different stuff, could never swallow it.

Actually women and nature did that for ourselves. Men created god as the creator, because they couldn't stand the fact that that's what women literally are. They had to have a man-made god to erase women's real creative abilities.

It is called faith. You have a belief in feminism, as do all of us here Ditany. What you lack is faith.

It requires a complete faith and trust that transcends all normal day to day monotony, it also requires that you see the good in people and situations. From your very narrow argument I get the impression of a wronged women.

Whilst I accept that it is the work of women to further the cause of women, don't you realise that in the time it was written the bible, written by men, furthered the cause of the sisterhood. As did the quoran in it's time.

Oh, just wanted to add clockface, I am in awe that you are studying theology,(I'm not bright enough) unless I could start with a GCSE

Yes, gender issues is my interest, although Biblical interpretation plays a fair part in that (obviously!). I'm really keen to explore how a matriarchal community works out christianity and the Bible in social and cultural terms. Yes, it's very exciting, but I have to wait until next summer, as I have lots of ground work to do, I'm just at the beginning of my explorations on this level.

Yes, although I had forgotten about Yahweh, as in the ?personal name of god? Appeared to Abraham as Yahweh and said to go out into the world and create a kingdom that he would make a name for himself. I am not Jewish in the real sense, my father is Jewish as were all his descendants but I am not. My father was brought up a Christian, too convoluted to explain but I grew up questioning the birth of Christ. I remember sulkily refusing at five to take part in the nativity because the teacher was telling us that Jesus was god, son of god etc..... and I knew I could never accept this as truth, lack of faith, call it what you will.

I have just started the process of finding out about Judaism and so far I find nothing in it that I didn?t already believe in.

I hope OP can find peace with herself and not give up on god. I can't comment too much on whether Christianinty is compatible with feminism, I don't think the christian church is. I do think it is possible to reconcile God and much of the bible with equality.

For me it is about accepting that God created an opposite of man, he created eve to complement adam. She wasn't less of a person, she was different. Womens strength is drawn from those differences.

Men have sought to control and manipulate women becasue God gave us the ace card, the ability to carry, birth and nurture children. That is where our strength comes from.

Extending, no, not SW, not exactly. I'm in the South of England though; I'm extremely blessed to be at a fantastic university!

Your matriarchal African Christian community sounds wonderful! Are you going to be working on gender issues / sociology of religion? I am feeling more inclined towards biblical interpretation (prob NT but I really really love working with the OT too; I've done lots of work on OT wisdom literature which is really fascinating from a gender POV).

Well QueenBathsheba (what a very very cool name btw!) I love talking about biblical Hebrew! Are you Jewish? If so I'm sure ou have a much better idea of how Jews view God than I do.

(Bible Geek alert) Both of the names for God that you picked up on are interesting; both are plural nouns and both are ancient Near Eastern names for God rather than specifically Israelite(El being the singular form of Elohim; Adonai is a Ugaritic word that literally means 'father'; so not v. feminine). The most important name for God surely is Yahweh, the name revealed to Moses at the burning bush. There is definitely mother imagery in the Old Testament, and loads of birthing imagery, some of it very graphic (!)...I'm just not sure it's in the divine name(s).

From a Christian / New Testament point of view, Beverley Gaventa's done an excellent study on mother imagery in St Paul. It had a huge impact on me when I first read it.

Wow, Clockface, very cool! Would your OT academic be based somewhere SW by any chance?

?Sad to say, but don't confuse God with Church! Sense at last!?

Most Christians have read and believe the words of the Old Testament although many seem to think that the New Testament is an improvement! I think it?s no surprise that hundreds of years ago the Church of Rome Sought to extend it?s power across the globe and in doing so hid the Old Testament from those it sough to convert.

In the Old Testament god is given two names in Hebrew, Adonay which has a feminine ending and Elohim which has a male ending. Jews believe that God is both Mother and Father. In the Old Testament the names are used interchangeably, god is often referred to as Adonay when he is loving and forgiving and Elohim when he is angry, vengeful or controlling. Interesting! Cetainly sounds familliar too many living under the oppression of patriarchy.

In the Jewish Faith, it is almost unheard of for anyone to refer to god as he, but few people use the word Adonay, because it is considered too holy.