The Catherine Hakim research

Oh karma - what you are saying is that you want working hours to be restricted to 9 to 6 to include networking? It's not going to happen, ever.

Networking can be done during working hours. Why not if it is an essential part of the job?

karma - no, not the only way, but all client-wooing activities were similarly out of work hours time consuming. Basically a high-networking industry. If you remove the networking aspect, there would be no business.

It is not the only way to win clients though is it? And nor is drinking all night. And often it's not even about winning clients. Often it's about networking internally. That was certainly the case at my last work. There wasn't a client in sight at those late night drinking sessions. When I worked in those sorts of roles the vast majority of the client entertaining I did was during the day. Night time drinking was with collegues. Clients were an unwelcome annoyance. You'd have to behave with some decorum if clients were around. But you had to do the night time drinking to get in with the managers. You didn't get promoted if you didn't partake.

That is my experience (and plenty of other women) but Hakim is effectively saying it doesn't matter because some women choose not to be a part of it. (Not that it's really a choice if you have young children at home.)

karma - if playing golf with clients is how you win clients, it is effectively part of the job, isn't it?

No, absolutely not. However, whether you are available for drinking sessions (or golf) outside of work hours should not be how individuals are get and are assessed for jobs. What should matter is how good you are at the job, and yes that includes whether you can win client work, if it is relevant, but not whether you can drink to the early hours of if you can play golf. An awful lot of managers are currently unable to make that distinction and women lose out.

karmakameleon - I worked in an environment where spending one's weekend on the golf course with clients was the norm. So? What do you think is the right solution? Outlawing golf?

Really? 30,000 women a year made redundant because they choose to have a baby and therefore are denied a career isn't a lot? And that doesn't include women who are forced to give up because of difficult working practices. (For example in my last workplace it was the norm to spend several hours in the pub after work. That was a culture that is totally incompatable with being a working mother and not surprisingly there was not a single one in the team. Lots of working dads though.)

So my guess is that there are lots of women who have had to give up careers that they would rather keep because they have had children. Hakim is basically saying we can ignore them.

I think you are misreading Hakim, karmakameleon. She doesn't attempt to claim that all women are getting exactly what they want and a fair deal out of the work/life balance all the time. Rather, she claims that more women than some so-called feminist factions claim are making choices to put time with family before time spent on career.

Bonsoir, just because Hakim represents your experience, doesn't mean that she can speak for all women. Given that the estimates are that 30,000 women a year are made redundant following pregnancy, there appear to be a lot of women who really are denied that "choice" between career and family. Men are not made redundant because their partners fall pregnant, they don't even have to make this "choice".

I have a lot of respect for Catherine Hakim. She represents my own experience and feelings.

And I have significant personal experience of pursuing those typically masculine qualifications/career path that the "feminists" say were the route to female fulfillment.

In the company where I last worked, sadly it was a given that conception = redundancy. Sadly none of us realised that until we are already at home with bambino. We all fell for the company line that so-and-so "chose" not to return to work after having their babies and were none the wiser, until we became those "so-and-sos".

In the long run I believe that for me and my ex-colleagues who would have liked to return to work, it will be a good thing as we create our own work opportunities in a way that suits our lives better than scraping our noses on someone else's grindstone. But that is in the very long "long term".

your heart felt certainty is touching but nonetheless not wholly factual for all women

you originally said "but let's be honest, as soon as a woman conceives a child, she begins losing out to men in the career stakes (not to her partner but to the men in the same field as her)"

i challenged this and

your revision was "it's not a given that conception stalls a career, but there's a huge chance it might"

which is a revision and sensible reflection

now your individual certainty cannot be assumed or transposed onto others.you may want to make another revision

although individual certainty can have an emotional bias and subjective component. so maybe you draw upon your or others subjective beliefs/experiences

?

I am certain that women-as-a-group lose out in the workplace because of conception

ALthought individual women, such as yourself, may be lucky

yes and chance doesn't equal certainty. but good to see you have revised your stance for this

it's not a given that conception stalls a career, but there's a huge chance it might

so isnt a given that conception alone stalls a career.or renders female lesser than her male colleague in same field

in reality there is discrimination for some, no discrimination for others, and bit of both for some others too

the grade attained, industry worked in, and flexibility offered all come into play

i wasnt compelled to go back ft either. i chose that. other females colleagues did go pt after their dc

I believe you, but it depends on the field. SOme fields are viciously anti-mother (academia springs to mind, where the most successful academics are family men, followed by childless women)
You are never going to know how many women didn't pass the interview, or were targeted for redundancy because they were pregnant at the time. Companies can always find a premise.

i worked ft after all my dc.have been competitively interviewed against male and female and promoted.Is not an automatic given that motherhood always equal demotion or career stall

I dont claim my experience to be representative but is my experience

I'm thinking of me turning down a job the equivalent of DH's salary when I was pregnant because it was contract work that I wouldn't have been able to uphold because of the break I needed for childbirth. My "career" has taken a nosedive since then

I "chose" to take care of my children myself, but let's be honest, as soon as a woman conceives a child, she begins losing out to men in the career stakes (not to her partner but to the men in the same field as her)
If I hadn't wanted children, I would not never have married let alone taken a break from a career for pregnancy, lactation, post-partum and childcare.

well certainly interesting,and despite all the ho-ha not all immediately easily refuted.as for some it is a truism and choice

some women do chose non employed stay home status.plenty enough precious moment mamas and id never leave my kids with strangers posts on mn

and for the vast majority of women, men are our colleagues,partners,brothers and enrich our lives.yes we are allies.we arent in combat

the positive of this is the exploration of the myriad of choices people make.that is interesting reading,no matter how unfathomable or palatable it may feel reading it

certainly i would never chose sahm role.i make my own money,am autonomous and love working. conversely other women wouldn't make my choices.

I'm guessing moondog is a repressed radical feminist. She is absolutely right that this is the best women can hope for under the current economic system

moondog - I know you disagree with a lot of feminist points of view etc but really

"Oh belt up you miserable moo."

Have you had a bad day?

How about engaging with the thread/topic/explain what you think?

"My dh works halfway aronud the world (without us) and has done for many years becasue that's where the work is. That';s the way it is. Neither of us are crying into our orange juice about it."

You sure do mention that fact a lot on MN...

Lots in that that Telegraph article which is irrelevant to the research just some sort of attack on feminism. .