What does someone actually mean when they say "I'm not a feminist"?

Are you saying you won't call yourself a feminist until all other feminists get it right all the time? Do you applky this rule to every other group? You won't be a member of a political party, or faith or golf club until all the other members are perfect?

"TBH in my day to day life (and on here) I see far more self proclaimed feminists bitching about the choices other woman make than attacking the perceived sources of inequality."

Examples, please?

Put at its very very simplest I cannot call myself a feminist for as long as other woman who do call themselves feminists think it is OK to make derogatory comments about woman who chose not to call themselves a feminist.

TBH in my day to day life (and on here) I see far more self proclaimed feminists bitching about the choices other woman make than attacking the perceived sources of inequality.

"On top of this we knew ourselves to be equal to men in every way and never thought that our sex would hold us back from any job."

Ah, the sweet optimism of youth! I presume you think differently now?

I'm in my mid 20s. I went to an all girls school and I would say that most of my contemparies would have described themselves as "not feminists." Including, at the time, myself.

This is because we saw feminists as joyless, men hating, hairy lesbians who saw the world in black and white terms like "All Men Are Rapists" and thought that a male colleague telling you that you looked nice equaled sexual assault.

We also wanted men to hold doors open for us and buy us dinner or drinks. On top of this we knew ourselves to be equal to men in every way and never thought that our sex would hold us back from any job.

Edam, I suppose the finer details being sorted out later was a pat on the head to lots of people who were subsequently disillusioned by the inevitable power and corruption that ensues.

I Don't know about the labour party, but believe you wholeheartedly. Politics/money/ corruption.

LeninGrad Sun 02-Jan-11 22:55:10
What do you think it's due to Custardo? Because from where I'm sitting it's a whole load of white men in charge and they could effect change if they wanted to.

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I agree. I don't agree that white rich men = subjugation of women alone. yes they could affect change in this area, they could affect change in lots of areas

vesuvia Sun 02-Jan-11 23:06:53
custardo wrote - "I believe that when society divides itself into smaller ideological groups this divides society and therefore the power of the people to create change."

I think you are implying that is a shortcoming of feminism alone. I think that is a description of all political movements and parties.

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I am not implying this

This "I don't like to be labelled" strikes me as quite juvenile tbh, like feisty teenagers who insist on their individuality, not having noticed that the worldview they are expressing can be described as "fascist", "liberal", "conservative", "racist", "communist" etc.

People are very afraid of labels aren't they? As if by being given a label, they will have to go and live somewhere with all the other people with the same label and marry them and work with them, or something.

Do people feel that labels will stop them being individuals or something?

Or perhaps they feel that if they have a lable, people will attribute to them, views they don't hold?

I have yet* to find one

"Nothing that was said by feminists about women don't want to call themselves feminists, came anywhere near that level of misogyny."

Dittany What an amazingly flawed argument - just because it isn't anywhere near the same level, doesn't mean it is anymore acceptable - no matter how born out of anger or frustration.

If something is insulting and degrading, it is not OK, just because it isn't as bad as something someone else has done.

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"So despite feminism being the only equality game in town, would you rather not participate because you see feminism as hypocritical and not equal enough?

Do you participate in other political movements, even when they have no interest in equality or even promote inequality? As long as they do what they claim to do?"

vesuvia Other political movements believe in equality - it is just not their primary stated aim. However, as I said in my original post, I tend not to participate in political movements as such, because I have to find one that actually does what it claims to do and fits in with my personal belief system.

Even if there was one, I would probably not join it, because as I said, I think that putting yourself in a box can lead to a lack of being able to see the bigger picture (not always of course).

Why do I have to lay claim to being a feminist in order to believe in equality?

I wouldn't call myself an animal rights or environmental activist, it does not mean that I don't care about animal welfare or the environment and do things everyday to improve these things, even in small ways. I don't see why I have to call myself a feminist to believe in and fight for equality.

whats with all the "don't label me" stuff? Everyone has labels whether you like them or not. Its naive to think that you can escape it. Not-a-feminist is just as much a label as feminist.

And whoever said they recognised the problems women faced but said its not about male domination..I think you are confusing the personal with the political, which is another reason some will not identify as feminist. When you think of the male in male domination and the men you have particular experience of do not fit the mould, you fail to see the poltical dimension instead of the personal.

lenak wrote - "er no, because as far as I'm aware there are no other political ideologies that are primarily concerned with equality?
However, I do hold other political ideologies up to the same standard, but based on the arguments associated with their individual and particular stated aims."

So despite feminism being the only equality game in town, would you rather not participate because you see feminism as hypocritical and not equal enough?

Do you participate in other political movements, even when they have no interest in equality or even promote inequality? As long as they do what they claim to do?

vesuvia - er no, because as far as I'm aware there are no other political ideologies that are primarily concerned with equality?

However, I do hold other political ideologies up to the same standard, but based on the arguments associated with their individual and particular stated aims.

lenak wrote - "despite the dictionary definition of feminism being equality of the sexes, it does focus largely on women and often seems to me to ignore, or at least place on a lower priority the inequalities suffered by some men (single fathers and SAHD's in particular. "

Turning that around, do any political movements place an emphasis on single fathers and SAHDs (and at the same time, give equal priority to addressing the inequalities suffered by some women)?

If the answer to that question is "no", that seems to me like holding feminism to a higher standard.

Dittany - Sorry if the fact that, as a strong, non-submissive, successful woman who knows my own mind, I find being called "Stupid and Submissive" and "an Idiot" insulting upsets your feminist sensibilities.

I did not compare feminists to misogynists - I didn't mention the word misogyny at all. I only used conservatism as an example of another political ideology - I could have easily said socialist views or liberal views.

I simply pointed out that if a man had said those things he would be called sexist.

The fact that you have labelled a man saying those things would be mysogynistic, yet seem to think it is OK for feminists to say it because it is borne out of frustration speaks volumes for the contempt in which you seem to hold people who disagree with you.

vesuvia - indeed.

I find it deeply annoying. Many people my age think that feminism is almost embarrassingly out of date, because there are now equality laws.

The fact that these laws are a very recent drop in a very big ocean, or that they are not always observed, seems to be irrelevant.

LittleRedDragon wrote - "Women my age are constantly made aware that women get better results than men at school, and that the laws have never been more positive in terms of helping women/mothers have careers. Many people feel that identifying as a 'feminist' is tantamount to being ungrateful for these advances."

Many of those laws and improvements in society are because of feminism not despite feminism.

How can feminists be seen by non-feminists as ungrateful for feminist-inspired laws?

That is bizarre!