What does someone actually mean when they say "I'm not a feminist"?

"I want to be able to wear make-up and for men to like me"

It's hard isn't it. She really is very nice. She's not very political generally TBH - as someone mentioned earlier, feminism is a political statement. I guess maybe some people don't feel that strongly about that sort of thing. Conversations about politics end up with me looking at her like this as well. I have tried, she's just not that interested!

ISNT wrote - "She is a charitable person, and does good work and all that."

Fair enough!

LOL

yes well.

I'll have a think about that one. She is a charitable person, and does good work and all that. Religious. Hmm.

ISNT wrote - "Things have worked very well for her so why rock the boat"

To help other women less fortunate than her?

I have had two conversations with friends who said they weren't feminists, that I remember.

One was when I was 16 and there were 3 of us, two of us said we were feminists and the other looked quite shocked and said that she definitely wasn't. We talked to her about stuff but she wasn't having it. Her background was from a very very traditional family - male head of household in a big way. There was also an element that she thought that boys wouldn't like it. She is married now and her relationship is very traditional, in line with what she was brought up with.

The other conversation more recently, with a friend who is highly intelligent and always with an interesting slant on things. She had thought about it and decided no, feminism wasn't for her. She liked her role as wife and her husband being the head of the household and felt that everything was as it should be. And to be fair she has a charmed life, so really doesn't see that anything needs changing. Things have worked very well for her so why rock the boat IYSWIM.

When people say they aren't feminists I ask them why TBH. There are loads of different reasons

I think a lot of non-feminists see the glass as half-full and a lot of feminists see the glass as half-empty.

When I hear a woman say "I have plenty of money, a good career etc", I usually want to say, well perhaps your career could be even better, if certain discrimination was removed.

That reminds me of a thread about prostitution I was on. There is a prostitute who describes herself as a "courtesan" who is being paid a million pounds a year as a retainer by some billionaire. She was praised as a feminist success by the happy hookers.

My response to that was along the lines of a million pound a year is a lot of money in absolute terms to most of us, but peanuts to a billionaire, less than a few hours work for him. That shows how little he values her, probably less pro rata than a punter on minimum wage pays some trafficked drug addict on a street corner. She has to sell herself short because the power is with the male billionaire.

KalokiMallow wrote - "But there are some people who think of it more in terms of wanting revenge on men. They don't want to be equal, they want to be the privileged sex."

Please can you give some examples of that because I don't think I've seen that. Perhaps I am experiencing a blind spot of some kind. Examples could help me recognize "female supremacy" thinking and help me take steps to oppose it if I come across it.

Dittany My point is that it isn't feminists causing it. But that people's views may be coloured by their experience with people who are after something other than equality.

It's not unusual to have your views affected by the people you speak, and the only solution is to keep educating people.

"I think they also believe that if they are a 'feminist' that means they can't like doing traditionally feminine things, must have a career, can't be a SAHM etc. "

Which is a lack of knowledge about it, sometimes told to them by people claiming to know it as a fact of feminism.

I think many women feel that all the battles have been fought and that anyone who continues to describe themselves a 'feminist' is just being argumentative. I think they also believe that if they are a 'feminist' that means they can't like doing traditionally feminine things, must have a career, can't be a SAHM etc.

I think also some women have simply had very privileged lives and their gender hasn't stopped them doing anything or been a disadvantage. This is often true of younger women - they don't realise how much harder things can be once you have children or get older. That's when the real prejudice kicks in, I find. Whereas at school girls do better, there are loads of girls at uni doing really well, and the gender gap is pretty equal early on in careers. So it's harder for them to believe that women are still disadvantaged.

It's easy to discount feminist issues if something hasn't happened to you yet, e.g. rape, job discrimination, even heckling. I can count the times I've been heckled by builders etc. on one hand, and I don't think I'm unattractive! It just hasn't happened to me much.

I think unfortunately for some people, feminism has attracted some stigma. Not always helped by some of the people claiming to be acting in the name of feminism.

Now I know feminism is about equal rights for women, and equal treatment. But there are some people who think of it more in terms of wanting revenge on men. They don't want to be equal, they want to be the privileged sex.

Unfortunately you'll get them in all groups of people, it's not specific to feminism by any stretch. They also tend to be quite aggressive towards anyone who doesn't share their view exactly. And they are quite vocal too.

So I guess if you've had a few run ins with these people, your idea of what feminism is will be tainted by their very strange world view. Plus, if you've had run ins with them, you'll already have been told that you couldn't possibly be a feminist. Usually due to some strange idea they have.

I've actually been accused by someone like that of being against feminism because I like wearing makeup one of the weirder conversations I've ever had.

Some of the comments in this thread make me sad as they are writing off the opinions of those who don't feel they can identify with feminism. Especially comments like;
"When I hear that, I hear "I am very stupid and submissive.""

No matter how simple to understand feminism is at the very root, people have a wonderful habit of putting their own spin on it. You need to take into account what people have been taught feminism is about.

It also doesn't take into account how many people who do not identify as feminists still do their bit for equality.

I think feminism has become much more complex, and as such, it isn't always as simple as saying "I am" or "I'm not".

HopeForTheBest wrote - "My feelings about being a woman have changed dramatically since I was a teenager/young woman, when I would have described myself as a feminist. Getting older, having a career, getting married and having a child have all fundementally changed the way I see myself and the role of "woman".

Has the change in your attitude with age been influenced by feeling that you have reached a stage where feminism is of no further use to you in your own life?

Do you think you could ever be a feminist again, to help other women who happen to be less fortunate than yourself?

Women need to feel feminism is relevant to them. That's the point of the OP.

Lenin do you not think a decent campaign would work wonders? It does no woman any good for feminism to be a fringe movement. If feminism had more of a voice politically in the uk, wonders could be achieved

Thank you Belle I shall continue doing what I am doing and hopefully learn a bit more about feminism from this board

I think all women should be (and probably are) aware of how their gender affects their life, and have access to support networks and a sense of perspective on why things work the way they do, and how they can resist, make positive changes or stand up for women in all the little (and bigger) situations in which they find themselves.

Perhaps feminism would benefit from a rebranding exercise like 'gay pride' forces society to see gay people as a happy, positive entity who stand together. At the moment, feminism is definitely seen as out of touch and out of date.