So is Christmas women's work then?

Zhen, I can understand why you feel you need to get up and help, and it's the right thing to do in those circumstances. But presumably your husband/partner is sitting right there with you, and equally capable of seeing that his mother is doing all the work and getting exhausted, so why doesn't he feel the same obligation to get up and offer to help her?

I understand that you're the one who'd be judged for being lazy and rude if you don't help, whereas it's probably seen as perfectly normal for him not to, so I know it's not equal or fair at all. But he should understand this and at least some of the time offer to help, before it gets to the stage of you being put in that position. Unless he's happy to just sit back and have you and his mum wait on him?

Zhen - I agree with that situation where it is rude for no-one to get up and help. But better is for your partner to get up and help thus subverting rather than perpetuating the gender divide. Not always easy I know, but my partner and I take it in turns to be the one to help in those situations.

And re the discussion way back or why do women do it if they don't want to, because they'll be the ones in the ones criticised if they don't. There was something posted on here a while ago about how the man can leave the cleaning until the woman gives in because it will be her that is judged by others for it, not he. If presents don't get bought or cards don't get sent, where will the blame be placed? I've never engaged with the idea that partner's stuff would be my responsibility so just act dumb at the idea that lack of anything could be a reflection on me. But once a precedent has been set that the woman remembers birthdays, sends cards, buys presents etc who will be judged if it doesn't happen?

It would be great to live in a world where we could just do what we like, regardless of gender, and face no consequences, but we don't. It takes guts to continually subvert gender norms and get judged for it. I quite like it as I like to be contrary. But I judge the situation that leads a woman to feel she need to do everything more than I judge the woman.

Well I had a brilliant Christmas my dad did all of it and doesnt allow any of us in the kitchen not even to get drink.

He likes to bring it out and do it all. My mums role was to have too much champagne and dance around the lounge, and try and embarass me in front of my husband lol.

Coming to this thread a little late :o.

Am with the in laws this year for Christmas. On Christmas Day, MIL has done the cooking whilst SIL has made starter/pudding. The three of us do the carving and dishing up, whilst the men sit at the table chatting and waiting, although to be fair, FIL does serve drinks .

I do feel obliged to add that I get up and help because I would feel rude not to, not because I am a woman. I know that MIL puts in a huge amount of effort at Christmas, and it exhausts her.

I know they are only teasing her, but criticism all round of SIL's turkey carving skills. I looked the men in the eye and announced that if they didn't like it, they always had the option to get up and do it themselves.

Silence all round .

I don't tolerate this with dh, but he does need to be reminded, sometimes.

god is genderless

and mary is revered in the catholic church and islam i believe?

anyway....tomorrow

dh will be vaccuming the living room and dining room

moving round furniture

fixing computers

helping ds (aged 17 ...thats another thread) to tidy his room.

i shall be preparing cooking

cleaning hob, wiping down cupboards and doing copius amounts of washing

When it comes to Christmas , or the Royal Family, I lose half my brain and don'T recognize myself...

The Japanese New Year's cards are all of fabulous pictures of people's children

I loathe Christmas cards, unless they are fabulous pictures of people's children looking very beautiful.

In France too, if you just go to a standard state school. If you want creativity/music/dance/art etc you must do those things outside school and pay for them. They are readily available, however.

My DH doesn't have a creative bone in his body. They stamp it out in Japan at a very early age

My DD loves Christmas. She loves decorating the Christmas tree, choosing and wrapping presents, writing labels, helping cook etc. Why? Because she adores the creativity of it all. I'm not going to force her to do all those things, after all. And she also loves Christmas because she gets to see all her family (grandparents, parents, aunt/uncle, cousins) together, for the only time in the year, and she is just so happy to see all these people she loves and who love her so much.

I think love and creativity are what Christmas is about, and I'm very happy to do a lot of the legwork and make a lovely party for all my family. My DP is (a) Jewish (b) hard at work (c) not remotely creative so he isn't very interested. But he doesn't mind me spending an awful lot of money on it, so I'm not complaining that he doesn't do much except load the dishwasher

agreed, but I'm just making a different point, really.
Christmas doesn't have to be perfunctory in the name of equality. People are different, some people actually like "doing Christmas" -just look at the Poncey Christmas thread- riddled with people have found their spiritual home

But if you're complaining that you're being put upon, if you're stressed, if you feel under pressure, then that's not the same thing as "creative outlet" , absolutely

for as long as martyr women do it all threads like this exist.stop fuckin skivvying,stirring gravy and feeling put upon then.

list tasks to be done
allocate tasks
doesn't get done?neither does xmas

this isnt a male and bastard man made xmas thang. just to get wimmin.just because.oh and baby in manger is a boy,haha

its a dont be a fuckin tit thang.get off your knees.get that raggedy cross off yer back.ansd stop being a widdle me me martyr

Oh, drinking coffee in Starbucks is in the lead up to Christmas, not actually on Xmas day...

Never cooked a Sunday roast in all the years I've been married though

DH gets the job of looking after the kids all day while I drink coffee in Starbucks do all the Very Important Christmas work
Nah, I like it, I do. I've got a creative streak, and if you enjoy cooking/baking then when else can you indulge your greatest food fantasies than at Christmas.
DH wouldn't notice if Christmas didn't happen [Xmas not in his culture] but I do get pleasure out of creating a magical time for the family

That said, I think I've got something called "demand resistance", which means that when you're expected or obligated to do something you resist it by procrastinating and end up not doing it or resenting it. Alternatively, if you've got no pressure and are doing something for the hell of it, then it's fun. I'm not under any pressure because of the Christmas-less culture I live in, and perhaps that's why I enjoy it all so much

only womens work of you daft enough to be martyr. we share as a family and dp does a considerable amount of driving and collecting our respective family

If full credit was given to Mary for giving birth to jesus then she'd be called his creator and she'd be worshipped.

There are people around who do some of that. They say, "Hail Mary, Full of Grace, The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus." In spite of that, it doesn't seem to make them respect women more. Maybe they use up all the respect they have on just one.

couldn't care less this year. OH is great at cooking and fired up by all the macho cheffing thats been on tv lately. got a big baby due in jan and so no alcohol and GD means no chocolate and minimal carbs. i'm waiting til i drop and then having my own private xmas!

I agree that Christmas is women's work because cooking, shopping, housekeeping, entertaining, keeping everyone happy etc is women's work all year round, there's just a lot more of it to do at Christmas!

And I agree that women need to start rejecting the pressure and expectations that we 'have to' do all these pointless things despite not wanting to do them and finding that they make us exhausted and unhappy - BUT I think we need to assert ourselves all year round as well. It must be hard to convince yourself that you don't have to cook a big roast Christmas dinner, buy cards and presents for all the in-laws etc while still believing that you 'have to' cook a roast every Sunday and remember all your DH's family's birthdays and so on.

Also there's so much guilt relating to children at Christmas, to hear some people talk you'd think it was akin to child abuse to not give your child a suitably 'magical' Christmas , even when they're too young to know or care that it's even happening.

I genuinely don't understand - ie I deliberately don't sympathise with - the posts from women about how they 'have to' do everything at Christmas, cook the food, buy all the presents, send all the cards and so on...

They - we - don't have to. I do fully realise that many women operate in a context where that expectation is so heavily laid upon them that it is effectively impossible to refuse. But we don't have to send presents to someone else's family (cue, every time I point this out, the sanctimonious assertions that 'my DH's family is my family', yadda yadda yadda). Or cook a bloody great meal of roastitude. Or send cards. Or any of it. It's a complete sham, this pressure on women to do all this utterly pointless and exhausting festivity.

It makes me very cross.

Don't do it if you don't want to do it.

Agree entirely. I was just pointing out the proper meaning of the phrase.

Although perhaps it's truer to say that Mary's role is acknowledged, rather than being completely ignored. And it is after all the birth of Jesus that is celebrated (all Mary's own work), rather than his supposedly miraculous conception (God's work).

It depends on what you decide is acceptable or not. My SIL (OH sister) goes into a complete frenzy of Christmassing that begins in November, does everything from trimming a huge house to numerous banquets throughout the season and into New Year. Her DH funds everything. It suits them, very gender-determined.
It's the whinging and whining from adult females that pisses me off, FGS if you don't like it, change what's happening.