Why is thin ''in''?

But why do they treat you differently for being slim?

I have always been naturally skinny so have never felt any pressure about body size as I am a very small size (and always will be) the same size. I think people do treat you differently and it means you dont have the same insecurities.

As I am the size that is 'in' as such it means I dont worry about dressing up in expensive stuff, loads of make up, regulating what I eat, fake tan etc as I already think I look like I should and wouldnt want to change it. People seem to overuse those types of things to make up for feeling bad about their bodies. That is just what advertisers want people to do obviously.

I suppose that means I have it easier so it is harder to put myself in others position I do look at other people doing it though and think its pointless. They spend so much time worrying about a lot of rubbish about preening and pampering or feeling bad about themselves, instead of enjoying life. Seems like a waste to me.

I think that is why some other people feel bad about it as they are chasing something they are never going to achieve. Excess fat is not good of course but to a certain extent you a born a certain way and wont go any lower than a certain weight without it not suiting your frame.

What is my friend who is a successful consultant missing out on?

Dieting is not stopping people being successful. What are you imagining,... give me a specific example. Sylvia misses the promotion because she only ate half a sandwich.

More likely to be, Sylvia misses getting the promotion because she asked for flexi-time due to child care issues, and now is stuck at home feeling unsuccessful and bored. Eats some biscuits, feels like shite....

I really don''t believe in society's tool of control.

We have education, we get jobs as lawyers, barristers, doctors. What is stopping women from living and being successful in their own right, free from oppression?

'just that the focus on maintaining a low weight takes up a lot of time and energy that could be expended elsewhere, so this can be seen as a tool to keep women down'

Ok am going to try and explain, it's not entirely clear to me either but will have a go!

I think women can diet fastidiously and it won't have much of an impact on whether they are successful in life.

Conversely I think that a lot of things do hold women back. The interruption of having children, loss of control over finances, isolation, unhappiness; all leads to an increased desire to look inwards. And blame themselves, and blame things like looks. And focus on that too much...

I remember psychologist saying in an unfavourable environment a person may start to look in the mirror more often as a way to regain a sense of self (sorry such flimsy evidence! but I do remember it and it stuck in my mind).

I also think there is nothing like power and success to make someone feel less critical of themselves.

Also the size 10 stuff was just to say that not every women is brainwashed to think this is the best, for some it really is the ideal weight.

I don't really understand - I'm not saying that women hold themselves back, just that the focus on maintaining a low weight takes up a lot of time and energy that could be expended elsewhere, so this can be seen as a tool to keep women down. Can you expand on the idea that dieting is a response to oppression rather than part of it? Are you saying that women have chosen this as a response?
I don't disagree that controlling food intake can be a response to oppression, but to say that it is only that is new to me.

I never mentioned size 10 or any other size. I merely pointed out that the body which became idealised in the 60s, boyish with very, very little fat eg Twiggy, is impossible for the majority of women. The previous "desirable" shape was slimmer than many "normal" women but did include a curve to the hips and noticeable breasts, which most women have at one or both of and could use padding/clothing/corsetry to approximate.

We now have a very lean body with large breasts as an ideal, which again is not achievable without surgery and/or dieting, for the vast majority of women.

I'm not commenting on the aesthetics of either body shape or ascribing a moral value to them, just saying that the very thin body which became desirable in the latter half of the 20th century, could never be a reality for the majority, as it is not a common SHAPE for adult women, however low their body fat.

And remember not everyone is meant to be bigger than a 10. I feel less aware of myself when at my true weight (which is a 10).

I think people have to be careful not to assume that all women are meant to be a certain size. With big boobs or whatever.

See, I do not think we hold ourselves back by focussing on dieting.

I would reverse it.

I think that being held back causes self-obsession. And a fixation on our looks.

I read something years ago about the change in ideal figure during the 1960s to being very, very thin with very small breasts/bottom and boyish shape, coinciding with the Pill becoming available. (I think it was Susan Faludi but it might not have been).
Anyway, the argument was an interesting one, which proposed that as a response to women's increased freedom (sexual, more women working outside the home, accessing higher education etc), a figure that would be impossible for most of them to achieve being held as the ideal would help to keep them in their place.
I know she's spoiled herself now but to quote Naomi Wolf "a starving population is a tractable one". Very true IMO.

I know it's a massive cliche but think how far we might have got if we didn't waste our energy dieting/thinking about dieting/loathing our bodies.

Yes.

So that's another question.

If the images presented to women as what they should look like, are so unattainable, rather than encouraging us to slim down, do they make us think "fuckit I'll never be that shape without major surgery" and give up and eat a pile of biscuits?

Not all women, obv, but maybe there is sometihng there.

Dunno...

It's hard to shake though. I'm fairly immune to this stuff, and didn't suffer too badly with feelings of inadequacy when I was younger (didn't even start until I was at uni) - but still I sometimes hanker after my figure that I had when I was much slimmer. Silly thing it, the clothes still wouldn't fit, as they're not designed for my shape. But still I have the occasional hanker...

DH and I are too fat, as it goes, but that's a health thing rather than anything else. The desire to be thinner is not connected to the actual fact of needing to be healthier IYSWIM.

I have loads more flaws now than at twenty. But am so much more blasé about them!

I do love fitting into the clothes I have. And do feel better lighter but hey ho that's just how I feel.

Absolutely, I hated my body as a teenager, and remember in my summer job I would look at the bodies of all the tourists and find some reason, however small, why their bodies were better than mine. So an obese sweating German woman would have nicer knees FFS or a 7 foot tall adenoidal Dutch pensioner would have bloody more toned arms or something. You can drive yourself insane.

Now I mainly adopt the fuckit policy. Men I fancy quite often fancy me back, and I don't have seven legs or an extra eye, so I might as well just be happy with what I've got.

I'm just annoyed with the clothes now, instead of my body for not fitting into them. :)

You and me both, Elf. I'm short-waisted too, so dresses are a complete mare to find.

I don't get this aspect to fashion. I don't really buy many clothes either because I am not spending all that money on something that doesn't fit. I do have a rummage in charity shops a bit because I live in quite a swanky area and love a bargain. But it's also a cost thing. But why, in a supremely capitalist society, are the choices so narrow? Surely they want to sell more clothes? Perhaps it costs too much to do anything other than churn out the same stuff but just a bit bigger and the return isn't good enough.

As for the thin thing, I dunno. Just another stick to beat us with. I tend to shy away from those of either sex who are too hung up on the size thing. Healthy does it for me.

I used to get a jodphur effect in next, with the trousers a bit tight around the waist and then with acres of spare material around the bum and thighs. Was most alluring

It's ridiculous how narrow the idea of what is acceptable is. My shape is my shape, it is fine, quite a nice shape even. But no matter how much I weigh, I am never going to have a waist which "goes in". So all through my younger days I felt as if I had a huge tummy, because that was my shape. I looked enviously at other women's slim waists, and flat tummies. It wasn't until much later that I realised that the women whose waists and tummies I was admiring, were admiring my bum and thighs. Because we don't look at the bits on other people that we're happy with, we don't look at others as a whole. We look at the best bits of others, in isolation, measure our bits up, and feel inadequate. Best thing I ever did was forcing myself to notice the whole figure, rather than just looking at one bit. Really helps. It would be better if no-one felt the need to measure up at all, obv, but while that happens, it's a useful tip

Am seriously tempted by the bigbum/bigtum collaboration. Find it incredibly frustrating when I buy jeans that fit over the bum, but leave a cavernous gap round the waist. For you presumably you get ones that fit round the waist that leave your poor legs all lonely in the oversized trouserlegs?

Elf I went to a do recently where lots of older women were sporting that exact look. It was great

Maybe that's why they appeal to me - as an apple - I have clocked that they are the right sort of thing for my body shape.

Not that I know about things like body shape though, obviously, as a feminist

You need skinny legs to wear a salwar kameez though. Sometimes the trousers are like really tight leggings.

I love the old women in India who wear saris with several folds of fat hanging out on their middles. Looks very comfortable :)

is it not the case that thin is generally healthier and as such naturally 'in' fashion

No that's very interesting, thank you!

One of my colleagues wears a salwar kameez (get me!) very often and it looks much more forgiving than what I wear. I would wear one myself, but for a few minor points, mainly involving looking like an arse

ISNT, hope you don't mind if I mark my place on the thread by informing you that the Indian "tunic and trouser combo" is called a salwar kameez.

You can open next to my new store "bigtum" for those of us who prefer to work a more apple-esque vibe