Hackney lap dancing clubs....help in signing a petition!!

It doesn't seem to have been a problem in Iceland.

And the majority of the population now support the ban. It was aimed at changing attitudes as much as anything else and it seems to have been successful.

There'll always be problems in these clubs whether they're underground or not.

The Capricorn Club shut down because it was offering prostitution on the premises.

In Weston-Super-Mare, 'Shadows' club had its licence removed for having a 14 year old employed as a dancer.

In Oldham, a club was shut down when it was found to be acting as a front for a brothel.

In Plymouth, a club had additional conditions attached to its licence when it was found to be breaching its licence conditions (the performers were touching the clients - only discovered when a police officer went to investigate a fight that happened outside the club and saw CCTV footage of girls touching customers).

The Dispatches documentary broadcast in October 2008 showed undercover footage in lap dancing clubs up and down the country. Prostitution was on offer in several and licensing conditions were being breached in all the clubs.

One featured in Newquay - Halos - never had its licence reviewed even though footage of the performers "touching" (ahem) the customers was shown on national television.

Another club in Newquay recently had its licence removed after it was found to be employing an underage dancer, dancers were offering "full body contact", and drugs were found on the premises. However, it was able to operate for a year without a licence because it had lodged an appeal (since lost).

There are many more examples from the last year or two but these are the ones I can remember off the top of my head.

At least banning them will make it less acceptable than it is now for men to buy a woman's body in a club and will go some way towards changing attitudes. I'm sure we'll catch up one day but we're a long way off yet.

Surely banning them will just mean that they will move underground, which will lead to more problems for the women who work for them?

Oh, I forgot about the promotions girls in Newquay who stand out in the street in little tops and hotpants shouting to groups of lads, "do you wanna see some tits?!"

In order to follow through on the 'if you don't like it, don't go in there' argument, you'd have to make sure that there was no advertising on billboards, on the radio, on lampposts, outside on sandwich boards (as a friend saw recently as he was walking through Bristol with his young son), no promotions girls, no mobile ad vans (Northampton), in newspapers, no queues outside clubs, no smoking areas outside the front of clubs.

Then no one who didn't want to be exposed to the industry would have it forced on their consciousness.

But good luck with trying to get a male licensing committee officer to put all those conditions in place.

It's not as simple as 'if you don't like it, don't go' Ticklish, as I'm sure most people on here will appreciate.

I know of 3 women who have been sexually harrassed by men waiting to go into strip clubs, or men having a cigarette outside. One complained to the police as it happened repeatedly as she left work. The police told her to find a different route home. Why should she have to do this?

Another friend had a similar situation but had her young niece with her at the time.

And then you get the advertising - on the radio (Portsmouth), in the local newspaper (Plymouth), on billboards outside where there are schools around (London). And you have them advertising 'back to school' nights featuring strippers as school girls (a Spearmint Rhino ad recently banned by the ASA). These things impinge on our consciousness whether we choose to go in them or not.

And having them on the high street makes them acceptable in a way that they weren't years ago. In Newquay, there was one (now thankfully shut) next to an ice cream parlour and an H Samuel.

Also, the more acceptable they become, the more likely it is that men will frequent them for work purposes, because it's just a bit of harmless fun, right?

A friend of mine, a woman who was in her early 20s at the time, about a decade ago, had to go and schmooze male clients at a Spearmint Rhino client night that her company (a well known car hire firm) thought would be a good idea. She had to sit and talk to men whilst they stared at topless women writhing around on stage over her shoulder. She didn't think to complain because..well, lap dancing clubs, it's just what men like to do, isn't it?

The sooner we go the way of Iceland, who have taken the step of banning them, the better. I do find it hard to believe, the more I know about lap dancing clubs, that we allow them in a supposed age of equality (ha ha) in 2010.

The word ?leer? is being used rather emotively on here to try and depict a scenario in which a man appreciating a woman?s body is nothing more than a letch. This choice of word depicts the woman as passive and the male as active: she just stands there and allows herself to be leered at, as if she has no choice: for her to merely be looked at is abusive. Tell me - when you undress for your partner at home, is it one way? Do you do it unwillingly while he ?leers? at you? Does he treat you with contempt afterwards? Or do you do it willingly, enjoying his reaction, and does he respond appreciatively? I cannot understand where the sense of dirtiness and shame comes from which informs some posters? choice of words such as ?leering?, ?exploiting?, the ? degrading,? ?make me feel like shit?, ?prodded for freshness.? You?ve already had at least three women come on here and tell you that they do NOT feel degraded. Why do you keep insisting on telling them that they are wrong?! You need to make the distinction between how YOU feel about nudity and how THEY feel!

Many of the posters on here make no distinction between facts and their opinions. It is your merely your opinion that women in strip clubs are ?exploited, objectified and degraded.? If YOU would feel like a bit of meat, then don?t be a stripper. If you did strip, then yes, you would feel like an object because it goes against your value system. If YOU don?t respect men that visit these places, then don?t date one. But all I ask is that you don?t try and force your opinions - as that is all that they are - on everyone else by signing a campaign that really just says: ?I don?t like the idea of men enjoying looking at other women naked. I find the idea dirty. Even if the women are doing it happily, I can?t accept that and think that they must not know their own minds, so I?m going to try and stop it.?

The existence of stripping and strip clubs is a moral debate, so there can never be a right or wrong answer. Banning them involves forcing your personal morals on other people who may not share your view. My suggestion is that if you find it objectionable, then you don't visit them or work there.

breathtakingben, what is that supposed to mean exactly?

'A stripper' is first and foremost a woman. Her identity is no different to any other woman's just because of her job - stripping is not her defining characteristic.

You appear to be trying to argue that society sending the message out that it is ok to leer at and sexual harass some women, makes no difference to how women in general are viewed within that society. You appear to be trying to make this point by suggesting that there is a difference between 'a stripper' and 'a woman' - how objectifying can you get. Seems to me that you have just made my point for me.

Strip joints do not exist in isolation within a cultural vacuum, neither does porn, sexed up music videos or any of the other mechanisms which objectify women and sexualise society.

breathtakingben, you mean you would treat a stripper differently from any other woman? In what way?

I worked in a lap dancing club when I was a student, I can't say I felt I was being exploited or poorly treated. I was paid pretty well and if anybody tried any funny stuff then I'd just alert security to throw them out.

"These places send out the message loud and clear that women are sextoys for men. I'm a woman and I object to this message."

Only if you treat every woman as you would treat a stripper.

Oh and whilst I hope to god that the women who strip in these joints do so in reasonable conditions, I think that is actually utterly beside the point.

Being leered at by a bunch of men is not being treated well.

Oh please, not the 'it's her choice to be exploited, objectified and degraded' argument.

How about we take the focus off the women and put it on the men who pay to watch live wank fodder and the people who make money from providing it.

These places send out the message loud and clear that women are sextoys for men. I'm a woman and I object to this message.

The idea that men are such sexist entitled bastards that they will get round the law by creating an underground network of strip joints is just blackmail (and insulting to a lot of men).

I had the email from Object and will be filling in the form to support this move by Hackney. I hate the way that paying a woman to grind naked on a man's lap has become a mainstream pastime. It was hard to deal with when my ex and my brothers went to one on a stag night. 6 men sat in a small room whilst a girl nearly half their age danced naked for them all for about 20 minutes. The thought of men I know and respected doing that makes me feel sick. Apparently though, it was her choice to work there, so that was ok. That argument was used to remove any responsibility from the men.

It is horrible having a partner visit one (such a double standard-women are expected to just laugh it off yet no men I know would be happy having their partner pay a hot naked guy to dance naked for her in a private room) and it is horrible working with men who have visited one. The way they talk about the women is awful and it is not pleasant having to listen to men comparing the women's body parts. I look forward to the day when this country is as enlightened as Iceland.

Thanks for highlighting this, TheFeministParent. I am so pleased Object is working on this, and really hope that Hackney Council succeeds with the proposal.

Doh!

Many apologies Mrs C I was posting before running for a curry and clearly am a moron.

My post was supposed to be directed at Ticklish. Thank you Seth for pointing it out.

Will now eat curry and see if food makes me more coherent.

So why do I object to walking past a lap dancing club? Because to me they are the High Street proof that the society I live in has essentially been set up for mens benefit and convenience.

I'm completely confused here. Why do you think MrsClown is going to call you hysterical or frigid? Are you sure you meant MrsClown, or did you mix her up with another poster? I thought you two were on the same side

Apple enters stage left cackling maniacally...you know I doubt we're going to agree here Mrs C but I'm game if you are...

I do have a request though: would you be willing to refrain from calling me hysterical or frigid simply because we disagree about the licencing arrangements for "adult entertainment" in my own country?

Obviously I may well be both those things but as we are unlikely to meet socially or sexually I feel it's not really relevant to the thread.

eyes down

MrsClown, the men that 'jeer' at women upon leaving a strip club are probably the men that leer at women from their car wondowss in summer, their ladders when doing building work, or from across crowded bars. It is ridiculous to BLAME lapdancing joints for this rudeness.

Furthermore, the jeering men that you spot leaving the clubs are the only ones that you notice because they are the ones behaving badly. What about the polite, well mannered man leaving behind them without drawing attention to himself? If you have never worked in a lap dancing club (unlike MamaJoJo, who has one of the best knowledges of the industry you are likely to find - google her) then how can you POSSIBLY make an informed comment on the behaviour of what goes on in there? You are speculating and are in no position to be taken seriously as you are an outsider merely guessing at how men regularly behave inside these places.

As for the women complaining about merely having to walk past them and - even more ridiclously - worrying about the damage that might be done to their children as they pass the premises: you need to be less hysterical. Firstly, strict laws givern these premises and there will be absolutely zero sign of naked women/their photos on the outside. Secondly, no one is forcing you to go in, so why are you so offended at having to merely walk past? I don't agree with gambling, but I don't insist that betting shops are closed down.

My next point is that only women who are exploited are the ones forced into the sex trade, and if you Google the scientific research done in this country, it's actually quite rare. The many women who choose to work in strip joints because they like what they do are not exploited. They are chosing what they want to do with their bodies, and that, for me, is partly what feminism is about.

Finally, women have to accept that not all other women share their views, and having a stong moral stance about something does not make it right. Some women feel uncomfortable with their bodies. Some only feel comfortable baring all in front of their partners. A few are happy to bare their bodies very freely, even to strangers. Equally, many men enjoy looking at female bodies, and some enjoy it so much that they actively seek to do so by visiting places where women happy to do so, do. It is a mutual exchange, and if you feel that men who partake in this are degrading to women, then don't date one. However, don't try to force your wishes upon the many women and men who disagree with your views.

Mamajojo, I totally agree with Apple. I dont want to have to walk past these places. If you agree that it should be every adults right what they see, should I not have the right not to see these sleazy joints. As far as the employment argument is concerned, I suppose people said the same thing when we were sending children up chimneys! Your reasoning is amazing. Iceland have just banned all strip clubs, isnt it amazing that they have 50/50 gender in parliament! Also, please do not call the sex trade an industry. How can you be a feminist when you know women do not have access to the same kind of entertainment. Maybe I would like to admire the male form. I do know that Stringfellow has men performing in his clubs but they are not fully naked as the women are. Is that equality! NIL policy is not a reckless idea. It would mean I would, once again, be able to frequent any areas in my town and not have to avoid certain areas as I do now. In my town we have 1 opposite a church and 1 opposite an abused women's centre. OMG, who thinks that is ok.

I realise Mamajojo that you have a right to your opinion but I have noticed a definite downturn in how society views women since these joints have proliferated. I do not enjoy walking down the street and seeing groups of drunken men who have just left one of those places jeering at young women who are walking around minding their own business. Women are more than a body. Girls are less self empowered now than they ever have been it seems to me. These places have a negative effect on towns and cities. I have seen some of the clientele coming out of these places and please take my word for it intelligent is not a word I would use for them!!!!!

I have filled in the questionnaire.

MamaJoJo I read your post with interest but I object to the explosion of lap dancing clubs that we have seen since the loop hole was discovered on the grounds that the industry objectifies women and I believe debases all women (and men too really). Now you may well feel that these objections are small minded and ill informed but I still have to walk past these places. I still have to walk my children past these places. And to be honest they make me feel like shit every time as I wonder how in the Hell I am going to protect them from a society that treats women like meat to be judged and looked at and prodded for freshness for the benefit of any man who cares to.

I am glad that your experience in the industry has been positive for you. But this does not negate the impact of the industry on others who have not been so lucky or indeed any woman trying to walk down a High Street.

Think again before you agree with the NIL policy!

I am a mother, a feminist and a former striptease dancer - I DO NOT represent the sex industry but I do represent every adult's rights to choose what they want to do and see.

The majority of London?s striptease/table-dancing/lap-dancing clubs are very well managed, have great security in place, are fair and kind to their work-force and are willingly governed by local council's rules.

The NIL policy is a reckless idea!

Censorship of this sort is another step backwards as it will force the good and highly regulated clubs out of business which will create an underground network of shady establishments where they will be able to exploit their workforce due to a lack of external control.

There is actually very little exploitation at present, as the women who choose this line of work have to be well-informed before doing so. Many single mothers find this job fits in extremely well with their lives as they can earn decent money, retain their independence (not sponge off the state) and work whilst children are at school.

Surely there is enough unemployment without killing an industry that provides work for not only the dancers and staff but also for the local cafes, restaurants and taxi firms.

Statistics show that the majority of drunks and drug user?s frequent pub and bars NOT striptease clubs, so should we then try to outlaw all bars and pubs too?

The clientele of strip clubs are mostly well-behaved, intelligent men and women who take delight in watching the female form ? a pastime that shouldn?t be banished due to ill-informed, small-minded perceptions.

Done!

Got an email from Object last night, will be filling in all forms... thanks for bringing this to MNs attention....

What a great proposal. Filled in the council's online form about it. Thank you VERY much for bringing my attention to it