'A woman who drinks to get drunk is deliberatly endagering herself and inviting rape' Oh my Gosh

I"m not a police officer, dittany, if that's what you're asking. I'm involved in a social work capacity, very broadly.

There was nothing predatory about any of the cases I'm thinking of -- the blokes and the women were all known to each other, small town groups of mates kind of scenario.

Several of the incidents were covered by CCTV, so there was clear video and audio evidence of what had taken place. Most men would assume that a woman removing her knickers and making 'come on, stick it in there' type comments was consenting to sex. Some men who were not quite so drunk might pause long enough to consider whether or not the woman was really sober enough to give meaningful consent.

I was trying to answer the OP's point about drugs and alcohol being a major, major factor in both men and women acting in ways that they would not have done had they been fully compos mentis. That's all.

I didn't at any stage say that I thought all rape allegations are lies and women make it up. My point was that some cases involve sets of circumstances that are not straightforwardly black and white, and that the legal system is a very blunt instrument for dealing with those cases.

no of course not. But you should avoid getting so drunk that you are not responsible for your actions/cannot remember the events of the night before.

A woman might get so drunk that she consents to sex with someone but does not remember doing so the day after. But that doesn't automatically mean she was raped, especially if the man she had sex with was drunk as well. But it equally doesn't mean that she made up the rape alagation - it simply means that she was so drunk she wasn't in a position to consent. However the man might be drunk as well, in which case why should only the man be responsible?

If someone goes out on a friday night, gets drunk, comes out of the pub, starts a fight, gets arrested for drunk and disorderly and is taken to the cells to sleep it off and then cannot remember what they did the next morning does that mean they're not responsible?

Surely if you know that something exists - in this case men who will rape - then regardless of all discussions of rape you should take care to protect yourself.

Keeping yourself alert instead of setting out to get deliberately drunk is just sensible advice.

Thieves exist so you take care of your property.

Black ice exists so you drive carefully.

Men who rape exist - and are certainly not easily identifiable - so keep your wits about you to minimise the chances of being raped.

Drinking to get drunk (in a public place) is stupid and does endanger people of any sex.

I don't agree that it invites rape. But it extremely stupid and reckless.

Iphegenie - I don't doubt that those instances exist. But I get so fed up when every time the subject of rape comes up, there is always someone who says that women make it up you know. Which is basically what you're saying. And it's very, very wearing

"The woman who walks the street at night might decide to get a lift home instead, and therefore the opportunity for her to be mugged would not present itself. "

No, it wouldn't. But her friend might rape her, which is far more likely, statistically. Should she perhaps avoid friends?

But ultimately this isn't about "get drunk and you'll be raped, stay sobour and you won't," it's about common sense.

Because people often put themselves in situations where they make themselves more vulnerable, be that through getting so drunk they are not acting normally/walking the streets late at night/wandering around a dodgy area alone/giving a lift to a stranger and so on...

In an ideal world it would be ok to do these things because we wouldn't be at risk of being mugged if we walked the streets alone at night, or at potential risk if we got into an unlicenced mini cab (be that drunk or sobour), or be more vulnerable if we got so drunk we didn't know where we were/what we were doing.

But this isn't an ideal world; it's the real world. And ultimately, while we all might be at risk of being raped/mugged/ripped off, there are things we can do to try and limit those risks.

A sobour woman might be more inclined to perceive the rapest in the pub as creepy and might not engage. If she's drunk her judgement is impaired and she might be more inclined to engage, and therefore the opportunity might be more likely to present itself.

The woman who walks the street at night might decide to get a lift home instead, and therefore the opportunity for her to be mugged would not present itself.

Ultimately we do need to be aware of the risks that are out there. And in part it is our responsibility to try to protect ourselves against those risks, prevention is better than cure after all.

These are cases that I was involved in a professional capacity, I can't really specify more than that. They all involved a woman getting very drunk and inviting various (also very drunk) men to have sex with her.

Women can consent to sex, you know, even group sex. Which is not at all to say that all or even the majority of rape claims involve women consenting and then regretting it. But to point out (and I'm going to retire from this thread, since clearly everybody else lives in a universe where things are much more black and white) that the law is a very blunt instrument for dealing with the complexities of human behaviour.

As for telling my sons not to rape -- well, duh. Obviously there are some blokes who deliberately set out to rape. And others who have a sense of entitlement which is not that bothered about the niceties of female consent, which is also deservedly classed as rape. But there is a significant number of cases in which drink and drugs clouded the judgement of the participants so that they behaved in ways they might not have chosen to if they were sober. Some of those may be rape, but some may not. Sometimes the only thing that is clear is that both parties wish it had never happened in the first place.

So on the basis of experience perspective, I'll go beyond telling my sons not to be rapists (duh again) and point out that they need to be very careful about ensuring that any sexual act is consensual, and they would be wise not to embark on sexual encounters that might be venturing into a grey area in terms of the ability of teh woman to give consent and/or the ability of the bloke to interpret the woman's signals accurately.

I honestly don't know. I mean, there must have been complaints, right? Yet it's still on the air. The Heinz advert featuring two men briefly kissing was banned and this isn't. I'm not familiar enough with the ASA codes to know whether 'blaming the victim' violates any of them.

I was so fucked off when i saw that ad but didn't know where to start

tethers are there any grounds for complaint do you think?

ISNT, I meant to start a thread too- I did about the poster. It is so graphic- and to what end? To scare women out of being raped?! What the fucking fuck?

Sorry going off at a tangent.

Those telly ads for cabs have a basic message women you are prey and you are never ever safe It's revolting. And they're paid for by the fucking government. To generate some paid for cab phone requests.

Like men never get assualted or robbed or anything when they get pissed Yes that's right it's just women who must be afraid at all times

Iphegenie-

"there was no reason for the bloke/s to have any indication that the woman was not giving her full consent -- otherwise you argue yourself into a position where any woman in a drunken group sex situation is incapable of giving consent, which is clearly nonsense."

The best and easiest way to ascertain consent is to check. Perhaps to ask "Is this ok?". It's a handy way to clear up the 'mystery' of whether or not a woman has given her full consent. Ask. If you're not sure, then it's no.

Tethers yes i meant to start a thread.

There have been threads on here mentioning the poster campaign, and how ads like that serve to intimidate women, and add to a culture of anxiety that women feel they are liable to be attacked at any moment.

And yes I saw the ad on the telly the other day and it was really disturbing.

It's this relentless idea that women are at risk from rape by strangers all the time. And if only they behave correctly they will be safe. Don't drink, don't go out after dark, don't wear a short skirt, don't get an unlicenced minicab.

But guess what? Scores of women who got black cabs ended up raped as they got into John Warboys cab. Thousands of women get raped when they are sober, in a long skirt, in daylight. You can follow all of the "rules", lock yourself away, and still be raped.

The whole thing makes me so angry.

Iphegenie - what are these cases you are talking about? What context were you involved in them? The only time I have heard of that happening is in group rape sessions for initiation into gangs. Is that what you are referring to?

Has anyone seen the anti-unlicensed minicab adverts in London(?) at the moment? Can't find a link, but like the poster only far more graphic and solely aimed at women. Compare this with the Real men don't rape campaign in SA.

I am horrified at this advert. It takes a lot to horrify me.

Yes it's really disturbing that just because porn tells people women want something, people are beginning to believe that women want it.

Remember that case of the woman who was pulled into an alleyway and raped and the rapist's defence was tht she'd asked him for rough sex and he'd reluctantly obliged? And the jury believed him - probably because they'd all seen porn which presents this behaviour as normal.

This pornification of our culture is so dangerous to women. People are being brainwashed into thinking that women like being pulled into dark alleys and raped, and love being gang raped.

FFS.

"In all those specific cases, there was no reason for the bloke/s to have any indication that the woman was not giving her full consent"

Was she giving an enthusiastic yes throughout the whole encounter...

Or did she say yes to one bloke and then a whole load of others piled in...

I have no idea, obviously.

I just remember that case where a woman was gang raped after agreeing to meet one man she had been chatting to online. The prosecution was abandoned as it turned out she had shared fantasies of consensual group sex with the man. What kind of court decides that because a woman has shared fantasies of consensual activities, it is fine and dandy to subject her to gang rape? Still that's where we are at the moment.

Do we really have to have a claim on this thread that loads/most rape cases that are reported to police are by women who got drunk and had consensual sex and then sobered up and regretted it and reported it as rape?

It's just not true, it's a myth peddled by people who want to propogate rape myths. False reports of rape are no higher than for other crimes. Most women who are raped do not report it, the ones who do self select to be the ones with more evidence as they know they will probably not be taken seriously

Really do we always have to go through all of this?

I also agree that drunkeness is a bum steer - most people are raped by someone they know rather than strangers when they go out and get drunk.