'A woman who drinks to get drunk is deliberatly endagering herself and inviting rape' Oh my Gosh

I think we should remind ourselves that most rapists, think of themselves as the Good Guy. And remind men as well. Sobering.

Drunk people are not generally excused if they stick a glass in someone else's face, piss on war memorials or write vulgar words on the wall of the police station. Why should being drunk excuse a rapist?
Many men, of course, will not rape a woman, because they do not have the sense of entitlement, or the commodified view of sex as something women don't like but trade. The men who do think of sex and women like this are the ones who don't consider what they have done to be rape (unlike the masked-man-with-knife type who knows perfectly well that he is raping women and doesn't try to tell himself that they don't really mind, and that it can't be rape because he is a Good Guy.)

God that's scary

I wonder if part of the issue here isn't just that the women are drunk, but that the men are too. And as drunken men might (quoting StuffingGoldBrass) "get beaten up, stabbed, robbed or hurt themselves by taking up stupid dares", they might also commit sexual assault. In fact they might start out with the intention of lowering their inhibitions so that they'll do foolish things that they normally wouldn't, in search of fun with no responsibility or any worries about consequences.

There's plenty of evidence that plenty of men think having sex with an unresisting woman would be fun, but most wouldn't do it if they were sober (let's hope). Drunk though, whatever inhibitions they started with would be weaker still, and whatever the woman tries to do to stop them wouldn't be a deterrent at all. They'd probably say that's what you get drunk for.

Maybe the real lesson is people shouldn't drink so much.

I think part of the thinking ehind rape myths goes back to this idea that women not only don't enjoy sex, but that they shouldn't, that sex for women is about being bred with, about servicing a man's needs, and that a woman who expresses choice and autonomy within sex is getting ideas above her station and is immoral (because she thinks it's up to her who she has sex with). Hence the insistence that women raped by acquaintances or gangraped are lying because they are ashamed of their own sluttiness and blaming men for it when the truth is that lots of women like casual sex, group sex and even, sometimes, 'rough' sex when we choose to have it and when we want to do it with the specific individuals we do it with. Women KNOW THE DIFFERENCE.

That should have been:

I don't know why you are arguing against Desiderata - you seemed to be stating the same kind of opinions as her earlier.

ISNT, I think your post about me on Wednesday at 10.25 is really rude. I am clearly not saying that women are passive in sex, and have explained this to you in previous points.

My posts were about people who were extremely drunk, and how that could make some people incapable of giving consent and other people incapable of interpreting signs of consent. It is you that keeps turning it into a general thing about passive women.

All of these points were in a discussion about an incident where the only person on here with knowledge of the incident has said that a sober person may have wondered if the woman was capable of consent. I have mentioned this several times and yet you are still ignoring this and trying to make out that this is about passivity.

I don't know why you are not arguing against Desiderata - you seemed to be stating the same kind of opinions as her earlier.

Interesting blog here

'Too often genuine consent is viewed as optional. Instead what many people seem to believe in is setting a tolerable level and context for non-consent.'

OMG @ Desiderata
"someone was prodding their penis into me despite my feeble protests"

If you were protesting, you certainly weren't turned on. WHy would a man want to have sex with a woman who wasn't turned on by him????
that's rape.

Actually, our sons (those of us who have sons) if they get pissed, are much more at risk of getting beaten up, stabbed, robbed or of hurting themselves by taking up stupid dares than they are of being falsely accused of rape.
I'm going to teach my son the core fact about sex, which is that it's supposed to be enjoyable for all concerned (the collaboration model, not the commodity model).

Desiderata, is it the case with the men who had sex with you while you were drunk, that they were men who you might not have minded having sex with anyway?
Please understand that I am absolutely not suggesting that you are a 'slut who deserves it', I am wondering if your interpretation of what happened to you might have been different if these opportunistic willy-wavers had been people you actively disliked or found disgusting.

No of course that wasn't rape AF.

Nor was mine, as I knew him and was alone with him. But hold on, I was sober! So maybe it was after all...

It's so hard to tell...

it's a shame there isn't quite a clear line, like, I don't know, sex without consent is rape...

and you didn't answer my question

Yes, you have a right to state your case, desi

The aggression is rather misplaced though

You have no right to tell other women that they have brought their rapes on themselves, that they are to blame, and that however much they protested to their attacker they were not actually raped.

You can state your case, if you are happy with what all those men (how on earth did you meet so many godawful men) did that's up to you. Just don't deny the experiences of other women, and call them naive for expressing what is the truth ie sex without consent is rape.

I have every right to state my case.

I got fucking drunk, and I got fucking shagged, on numerous occasions when I was young.

I didn't bother me. I saw it for what it was.

Instead of pandering to the feminine cause, 100% of the time, perhaps it would be good to stop and consider how your behaviour, when drunk, can lead to outcomes.

Policemen are used to picking up drunken folk every weekend.

The OP's uncle's view is jaundiced for a reason.

As I say, my opinions are limited to consensual, flirtatious drunkeness. If you walk down the street stark naked, you shouldn't expect to be abused. But if you go to a man's flat, then that's a different story.

Any gal who disagrees is naive.

Just because the law finds something difficult doesn't mean there's no right or wrong about it, nor is it impossible to decide exactly where wrong was done.

The issue of what constitutes rape, according to the law, is consent, not the long or short duration of after effects or where the rape occurs (bushes/ dark alley or your own room). Since 1976, the law has acknowledged rape within marriage as a legal possibility, and as a crime. Unfortunately, given the sad prevailing attitudes, even the attitudes of some women as evidenced on this thread, it is the woman who goes on trial if she is raped while drunk. This is because of the difficulty of establishing consent or lack thereof and the problems Beachcomber put so well in her post of 13:36:38 -- rape is 'too bad a crime to convict a man of/no big deal something any man could do if he had too much to drink.' The nature of rape as its victims experience it has not so far penetrated into the legal approach to it.

Desiderata, how come it is only rape that is invited by women while drunk. Are men routinely raped by other men while drunk? Are crimes such as burglary invited by drunk women? Murder? There is no logic involved in your idea that you invited or encouraged a crime by your drunkenness. Men rape drunk women because they believe they are entitled to use women's bodies and because it's easy.

desi, I was date raped after we had both been drinking

are you denying that I was raped ?

I also find it depressing that you knew so many men when you were young who would do that. It is not normal behaviour for a man to shag a semi conscious woman while she asks him to stop. That is not what most men do, they would be horrified at the suggestion. Because they would understand, correctly, that shagging someone who is asking them to stop is rape.

I would say that a bloke shagging a semi-conscious woman while she asked asked him to stop was pretty cut and dried TBH.

Just because you don't want to consider yourself a victim of anything, and it hasn't had any lasting effects on you, doesn't give you the right to tell other women who have been in those situations that they haven't been raped.

And you're confirming that you think that it's really common for women to complain to the police that they have been raped, simply because they regret an ill-advised drunken shag. That is bollocks. In the sense that it's not true. It is not common for women to report men to the police for rape as they regret having sex with them.

Interesting, Desi.

Can I ask how you would feel if your daughter told you that on more than one occasion a guy had had sex with her without her consent while she pleaded with him to stop?

In most instances, I pretty much do.

Yes.

If two drunken folks go back to an apartment, consensually, then I think the law finds it difficult to establish what happened next.

I don't think that's a difficult concept to grasp.

ah desi, I get it now

I see you subscribe to the view that "real" rape is only when a stranger drags you off the street

ISNT, my posts have been reasonably moderated on this thread. I don't think what I've said is 'utter bollocks.'

And your loud gob isn't going to change my opinion.

The issue is emotive, for sure. In my twenties, I got bollocksed so many times, I'm pretty sure I got 'raped' whilst insensible on a fair few occasions.

That being in the sense that I was half-asleep, and someone was prodding their penis into me despite my feeble protests. I can't say it scarred me for life, because I invited it by being pissed in the first place. I doubt the guy felt that great about himself in the morning, either. Alcohol does what it says on the tin.

There is a dividing gulf between that type of sexual encounter, and being jumped whilst walking home with your fish and chips, and being genuinely assaulted.