The demonisation of single mothers.

So, re agriculture - is that just one theory for the urge men suddenly had to enslave women, or are there others?

What do we know about the position of women as mothers in societies where there is no agriculture, or where it is a very minor part of the culture?

"Do you know the life story of every single person who ever lived on this planet?"

What exactly is the point of that question?

Young men shouldn't be afraid to stand up for their own interests. My beef with the way you are choosing to stand up for your so-called rights, is that most decent men would simply not recognise your version of rights as being valid, or something they would want to stand up for.

Most men and women want to live together in harmony. Feminism has never been about trying to give women dominion over men, it's been about trying to create a world where both men and women can function as full human beings and share the work, the joy, the resources and everything else, equally and fairly. Most reasonable men are in favour of that and would be disgusted by your horrible mysogny.

Most young men want to be fair and just and actually, they love women, they don't hate them. The problem is that what many people consider just and fair, is culturally constructed and when you analyse it from a feminist perspective, or a communist perspective, or a take-your-pick-of-any-other-outside-the-mainstream perspective, it turns out not to be so fair. Most people think they're against feminism not because of what feminism is, but because of what they think it is. Normal, emotionally healthy young men don't see their interests as being opposite to that of women - they see their interests as symbiotic with them. And in a fair and just society, men and women wouldn't be pitted against each other, they would work together, as millions do all over the world in spite of the patriarchy's existence. But you carry on with your hate-filled standing up for your privilege, no-one sensible is interested.

If we don't engage and just ignore, he will go away.

You don't need to cut and paste so frantically. We were here, we read it the first time.
What does your post have to do with the 3 thoughtful posts that preceded yours?

SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan Mon 06-Dec-10 17:17:46

just been trying to catch up on my thread given i started it and then went away for a few days. some really interesting ideas and thoughts then billhicks.

have reported a load of his posts to MN - don't usually but calling women hussies, suggesting forcibly administering abortion drugs to ones partner whilst pretending they were vitamins, accusing lesbians of being scared of penis's because they were nearly raped once and and women who talk of sexual assault as being hysterical little girls who nothing has ever happened to and the word JAPS was all a bit much for me.

is mn really here to entertain 23 year old men with no kids who hate women and recommend assaulting them?

i get there's a very tolerant low intervention philosophy here but there has to be a limit surely? i'd like to see him banned.

--

I didn't report one sexist insult that was thrown at me nor did I simply retort with sexist remarks, I asked if it would be fine for me to respond to mindless sexist adhominem with more sexist ad hominem whilst demonstating examples of their behavior turned on it's head with all the ugly assumptions they come with using a person's sex/presumed personal history due to political affilliation. as a line of attack.

poshsinglemum Mon 06-Dec-10 17:22:30

Bill Hicks- have you been to see your psychiatrist yet?

I havn't trapped my ex at all. I did take the morning after pill by the way(it was a mutual decision); it didn't work and I was quite happy to continue the pregnancy without his support in any way. I no longer need him. He's a dead end. Like you.

Oh- and I work to pay my way too.

--

You work to pay your way? I'm astonished. rolls his eyes I'll give you a pat on the back for working to support a child that you chose to have.

He is a dead end because he doesn't want children with you? Wow, that's fair.

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HerBeatitude Mon 06-Dec-10 19:06:36

"Whereas if you blame men, you have to admit that there has never been a time of civilised values."

Why blame men as a sex for anything? Should people start blaming blacks a race for crimes that black individuals have committed(in record numbers) or is that unfair? It is unfair, isn't it? When did this shit become about pinning the blame on people?

As for civilised values never having existed? How do you know that? Do you know the life story of every single person who ever lived on this planet?

www.libraryireland.com/SocialHistoryAncientIreland/III-XV-2.php

Before Ireland got destroyed by constant invasions, it was actually a pretty nice place to live for women.

We know women got treated badly throughout history and men treated badly thoughout history. We know that women still get treated badly and so do men. Just... women have had alot more help in recent years, I've posted numerous stories about men who have been fucked over by women to prove this shit isn't all one-sided.

Women for the most part aren't afraid(shouldn't be either) to stand up say "I don't think that is right." on behalf of women, women shouldn't be afraid to be an advocate for change when it comes to discrimination.

When will it be okay for young men to become advocates for men? How many years will we have to wait before we can do that without being suspected of trying to enslave women like some archaic tyrant?

This is what we get when we stand up for ourselves, I can only imagine what would have happened MRA's rocked up doing the same shit.

Up until fairly recently in the West, if women became pregnant outside of marriage they were cast out. I don't think things have really changed that much but women aren't ashamed any more. And that's what gets society's ire.

Also a lot of men used to do the 'decent' thing and marry women they'd got pregnant - both of them decided that was the best thing to do. But now neither of them feel those kind of societal pressures and yet the disapproval still exists. My nan is 100 and told me years ago she would have divorced my grandad if she'd been able but there was no way for her to have done so without casting herself and her children into abject poverty. So she stayed with him.

No idea where I'm going with this really, just that I think that while in a lot of ways we seem to have made progress, the single mother still threatens an awful lot of our society's constructions.

why would enslaving women come with the invention of agriculture - because you suddenly needed a fixed labour force to do the jobs of growing and processing, and once the old hunter-gathering skills had been lost it became harder for people to just leave if they didn't like it?
once you have agriculture you have ownership of land.

though I am also thinking about that Ray Mears programme about ancient wild food, which demonstrated that there was an awful lot of processing work needed to extract the nutrition from many gathered foods - it wasn't just a matter of picking berries and scoffing them. And also there are hunter-gatherer cultures that are misogynist. So I'm not sure.

a lot of other things changed at the same time as the invention of agriculture - towns came around the same time IIRC.

But what was the real problem?

At what point in history, did men suddenly start getting the urge to enslave women?

I know there's a theory that it all went to pot with the introduction of agriculture, but why? In ancient societies, the goddess mother, Demeter and her equivalents, were the mosst worshipped and important of the gods - at what stage did men start pretending that life came from men and that women were only vessels, not full human beings?

good point, Santa. That's why there are countless articles about the perils to society of women drinking/smoking/sleeping around/having children at a young age/having children at an older age i.e. things that men have always done without censure. But never any about men doing those things.

Santa yes that is an excellent point.

it's an exercise in misdirection.

I suppose if you blame women, you can comfort yourself with the notion that once upon a time -between 30 and 50 years ago, that is always the golden time for any society - the world was civilised and ordered, and if only we go back to the way we lived then and the values we had then, everything would be restored to civilisation again.

Whereas if you blame men, you have to admit that there has never been a time of civilised values.

Santa I think that's a really good point.

If we blame women, that is less threatening isn't it?

Although, the Daily Mail et al absolutely revel in "our society is gone to hell in a handcart" stuff, they actively like feeling threatened.

So am not sure.

This made me chuckle...

A certain presence on this thread lasted from about midday yesterday to 1 in the morning, he was then absent until 3.30 this afternoon.
Just after school closing time.

I also note that his entire Sunday afternoon was spent venting on mumsnet so I suspect this one-of-a-kind tomboy gf he was raving about is either a figment of his imagination or was out having a life without him.

Sorry wrong thread!

I mean I think that most women would struggle to BF a 2mo when away from the 10 or 12 hours a day.

Woman who is going to be a single mother soon starting to get nicely demonised on another thread at the mo.

So do we think our generation of single mothers get the same prejudice as our mother's. Afterall I think my Mum's generation (she's 56) would have disappeared and had a baby adopted rather than be a single parent from the off. I also remember my first friend whose parents divorced, I am 36.

Bill Hicks- have you been to see your psychiatrist yet?

I havn't trapped my ex at all. I did take the morning after pill by the way(it was a mutual decision); it didn't work and I was quite happy to continue the pregnancy without his support in any way. I no longer need him. He's a dead end. Like you.

Oh- and I work to pay my way too.

took the words right out of my mouth re: feminist utopia SSM.