The demonisation of single mothers.

Maktaitai, there are 2 ways of looking at that:

1. So what if men don't need women? That's good, it means that if they're with them, they're with them because they want to be, not because they need to be - adn that's a good thing, surely we want people to be together because they want to be together?

1. Men already don't need women once they've had children. Hence the large number of them who do actually say "they're OK as long as they have big tits and don't interfere with me cricket" (figuratively speaking!) The only thing they need them for in the current system, is to bring up their children so that they can pursue their careers unhindered by their children's need to be care for - which by and large, is what happens, no?

I'm not worried by a world in which men and women don't need each other tbh. I'd rather have one where they want each other and so therefore treat each other with respect and kindness.

I mean the house of cards that props up the patriarchal institutions.

"That's a tough one, I would have said take the job and try and change the company from the inside?"

Welcome to radical feminism, Truck
Yes, that is certainly a feasible direction.
ANd only an option for the middle classes.

Shahnah single mothers represent the downfall of patriarchy, in many ways. They are feared .

From Sexual Politics (Kate Millet):

"As co-operation between the family and the larger society is essential, else both would fall apart, the fate of three patriarchal institutions, the family, society and the state are interrelated. In most forms of patriarchy this has generally led to the granting of religious support in statements such as the Catholic precept that "the father is the head of the family"...Secular governments today also confirm this, as in census practices of designating the male as head of household, taxation, passports etc.
Female heads of household tend to be regarded as undesirable..."

There is a lot more to it but the gist is that if you get enough female heads of household, the entire pack of cards will collapse.

This is fascinating for me to read...I have been working on a script which I want to take into hostels for teenage homeless Mothers to work on with me, the class issue mentioned by Grumpla is what got me started on this....in one sense it IS more acceptable for working class women to become single Mothers...at least within their own circle.

Wthin the wider community, the treatment of younger single Mothers has been like a witch-hunt and it has sickened me for a long time the way younger and in many ways vulnerable single Mothers have been treated by the press.

It's thought of as fine to take the piss out of them in TV comedy sketches, to nickname them things like "Pram-Face" and even to abuse them in the street.

Why?

That's a tough one, I would have said take the job and try and change the company from the inside?

Fat chance of me getting offered the job though.

'Can you travel for work, no.
Can you do stay away overnight, no.
Can you be flexible with hours, no.
Oh and if the DC are sick I can't work that day.

Ah, we'll just slide your CV in the bin then. '

Again I think I'm more basic, I have to go to work, to pay for the children's (and my) needs, house, food et al.

I would love to see capitalism smashed, but I am a bit of a left winger or 'Class war' as I've been called at work.

The thing is though, that once he has children, a man doesn't need a woman either.

I do think that female society would find it quite threatening if there were a large number of single fathers all getting along quite happily and saying 'I'd only want a woman if she had tits and didn't interfere with my cricket'.

I'm muddling around at the moment trying to work out why I am still a feminist - you can probably tell.

Yes, there's no contradiction between anything you've written in your last post, and radical feminism.
I think if we all aimed for that it would be a good start . It's just that I honestly can't see a way out for women under the current system. It's a massive debate, taking into account the class system, the capitalist system under which we live. Patriarchy(male dominance) and capitalism feed off each other, and if women support capitalism in any way shape or form, I believe they feed very the system that oppresses them.
One example of this is: does a woman, (or indeed a man) turn down a prestigious, high-status, well-paid job because they know that corporation exploits vulnerable women abroad? A rad-feminist would have no choice but to turn it down.

Sakura.

I do get radfem I think. I think I'm just coming from a more personal point.

I just want to make sure my children have equal relationships. I want my DS to be an equal parent and be fully involved with his DC and not to slip into being main wage earner and that the woman does all the child care and housework.

and I want my DD to realize she is equal (better?) than anyone and not to slip into the stereotypical role of doing all the housework and childcare etc. even if she works out of the home.

I also don't want either of them to be financially beholden to anyone and if they are in a crap relationship that can't be sorted, end it and that there is no shame in doing that.

Just to add I have no problem with how anyone lives their own lives sah or woh. Their choice is their choice.

It's going to help in some ways, Truck.

The problem for me is, that as a radfem, there is a little more to it than that. It is always going to be the woman who falls pregnant, and who knows how often a woman fails to get a job because of her potential to become pregnant...
We will never know the answer to that.

The truth is, women have to fit themselves into the economy like square pegs into a round hole.

The role of care-giving itself needs to be valued more... and men doing it will achieve that. BUt if it is only valued because men are starting to do it, then that may not be a good sign for women. Fatherhood will become more than ever, and motherhood will still be as trivialised as its always been.

We are deep in the realms of radfem analysis, so don't worry if you don't get what I'm banging on about. Many women probably don't either.
But yes, paternity leave will be a very good start.

Personally, though, I think we need a radical overhaul of the entire system, to put the focus of society back where it should be: on raising the next generation, not on making money to buy lots of tat made by toddlers in the third world!!

I thing the more sahd's and shared parenting Dads there are will help equality.

Also if more men take extended paternity leave and flexible working then there would be no logic in employers discriminating against women as men would be just as likely to require flexible working which some employers seem reluctant to accommodate.

well, exactly HB!

I haven't.

One thing I learned very early in life, was that the word slut will always be applied to a woman, even if she is a virgin, that a man doesn't like.

So you may as well have as much casual sex as you want, because even if you limit it, you will be labelled a slut by those who choose to ues mysogynist labels.

It really annoys me how women are labelled as sluts for sleeping around.

I have always wanted relationships with the men I have slept with. They are the ones who have bogged off to the next lady. I am the one left with the bad name. Oh well.

I can imagine people helping out a single dad, HB, especially social services.
It's as though, when society sees a man doing anything, it suddenly becomes relevant and real, but when a woman is doing that very same task, the work is invisible and becomes part of the woodwork.
It falls in line with the concept that men really are regarded as being more "human" than women.

The other line of argument is that, perhaps, in truth, women are better copers (whether that's nature or nurture is another issue entirely)

Yes, good point HB.

Choosing to settle down with a man because you want to is very different to settling down because you have to.

I'm not sure, I think when you're in your twenties it's a lot more important for women to "settle down" than men, because of the menopause deadline. Often women want to settle because they want children and they don't want to waste their fertility years on someone who doesn't want to have children with them.

But once you have your children, you don't need a man. And that is profoundly threatening to people who have a vested interest in women needing men. The idea that it is much, much healthier for a woman to actively want a man, rther than just need him, seems to really upset some people.

Sakura, I think you are spot on.

I have never bought in to the 'myth' of women being more desperate than men to settle down. And yet we are constantly told this is what we want!

I agree that society 'conspires' to keep single mothers down (there are exceptions of course). I have a friend who left an abusive marriage and has had to deal with all sorts of cr4p. We just do not give single mums much support over here.

In a way I am one of the lucky ones - I have a sympathetic, family friendly employer, and a lot of family support (albeit at a distance).

There's a bloke up the road from me who is a single father and he gets hsi DD's looked after by various other parents (including me) practically every day, because everyone knows how tough his job is.

FFS I'm doing exactly the same thing as he is, and no-one is offering to take my DC's off for playdates once a week to help me out and I'm actually falling into that trap of thinkign "Ah, he's having such a hard time, I'll get L to come over and make cookies with us tomorrow to give him a bit of break".

And I'm a fucking raging feminist FGS!

Yes I very much doubt if they'd threaten to take a father's kids away in those circumstances.

You may not be treated like a hero Truck, but you can bet your life that you are looked upon with far more admiration than a woman in your circs. A man stepping up to the mark and raising his own children alone, is so singular, that it invites admiring comments and sympathy for how difficult it is, in a way that a woman doing exactly the same thing just doesn't. Also re your boss - have you considered that maybe he's sympathetic because you're a man? If you were a woman in the same circs, would he be so accomodating? It's one of those things that is impossible to know, I suppose.

no, not daily mail Truckulent, society in general. Fathers who do the bare minimum are regarded as heroes.
I see what you mean that in masculine circles, SAHDs don't get as much kudos as a man out earning his millions. BUt we're not comparing men with other men here, we're comparing what dads do with what mums do. When mums do something it's not even noticed, and they are held to a much higher standard than fathers in all areas.

There is a woman on MN whose husband died recently. she had 3 kids to cope with as well as her bereavement. DO you know what Social services did? Do you think they helped her out with a free cleaning service? Meals on wheels perhaps? Nope, they threatened to take her children away because her house was untidy. I shit you not.

poshsinglemum, I x posts with you. I agree with most of your post, except what you say the differences between men and women.
I believe there are differences in male and female behaviour but not huge ones. I think women are socially conditioned to not sleep around (who wants to be labelled a slag or a slut?).
ANd many women have had the experience of the man being super-keen to settle down, but she wanted to take it slow. That's because marriage benefits men. The happiness and well-being rates are:

1. Married men (most happy)
2. Single women
3. Married women
4. Single men (most depressed)

The sneaky media makes out as though it's women who are desperate to settle down, but the opposite is true, I reckon.

I also read research showing it's biologically better for women to have children from more than one man because if gives her offspring an overal better chance of survival, because of the mix of genes (not putting all her eggs in one basket IYSWIM)

With regard to the OP, I'm a single father and I don't think I've ever been treated as a hero.

A proportion of work colleagues think I'm a bit unreliable as I can't be flexible, and it has effected my salary. Fortunately my boss is a family man so I'm ok, if others were in charge I would have been replaced by now. I think it's the fathers who do the occasional family stuff that are considered acceptable, once you do it regularly you are flakey.

We must move in different circles, I know a lot of single mums and it is never commented on by anyone that I know of.

It isn't it the Daily Mail brigade that are really anti single mothers?

Single mothers represent female power, everything the patriarchy is frightened of.

That's why they're kept poor by the system. An evolved society should create a system whereby every child is provided for adequately out of taxes. Fat chance of that with the new Tory gov. The new government wants to make women more dependant on men than ever before. IT is thinking of paying benefits to the father only . WOmen had to fight for their family allowance to be given to the mother because men used to pocket it and spend it down the pub!

So a system has been created whereby women who play by the patriarchal rules are rewarded economically, because they receive the patronage and cooperation of a male.

The entire system needs an overhaul. We cannot have mothers dependant on men. It causes too much misery all-round.

It's all part of trivialising what mothers do, all mothers, not just single mothers; pretending that raising children is something that happens on the sidelines of real life. WRONG! Raising children is real life.

And what the papers never mention is what someone on another thread said: "Doesn't anyone wonder that for every single mother, there's a man out there doing fuck all"

I think that single mums are vilified because it is a direct challenge to the patriarchy which is upheld by the traditional nuclear family.
Oh my god- man not needed! If men don't want to be regarded as just sperm donors then they should stop behaving like them.

I am cynical but I think that many men do need to sow their wild oats and that marriage is a lovely idea but is a cultural contruct.

I had a conversation with my(happily engaged) best mum mate about me being a single mum and I said that it was ''against natural order'' and she replied that it is probably just as natural for the man not to be around as nature dosn't require them to stay to nurture the child. Nature requires them to impregnante as many women as possible in order to continue the survival of the species. (Who says that romance is dead!)

I do sense that many women fear being left by their men and being in ''my situation.'' I enjoy my situation a lot of the time to be honest.

Also I think that the stereotype of a single mum lets patriarchy off the hook. We can behave exactly how we want, including buggering off and leaving the women and the women has to pick up the flak.

I actually feel empowered as a happy single mum. I don't think some men like the fact that we can be happy on our own; after all how can they bribe us?

Gosh; I'm so cynical!

I would liek to get married one day btw so I am a bit of a hypocrit! Culture is very powerful plus I am a big romantic.

Oh yes Janos I am continually being asked if I wouldn't like a man in my life, pityingly, by women who appear to have no free time because they are too busy servicing their husbands. Or expressing surprise that I can work and drop both kids off at school and find time to run and seem so cheerful - because I ought to be wallowing in misery being a lone parent.

And if I answer that I'd like a man in my life if he has pecs and doesn't interfere with my mumsnetting, people give me a funny look...