So... anyone know about cave people and how their societies were organised?

but native americans -

squaw = a word for fanjo...

and since 1492 not unbuggered up by outside forces.

the holy land back in OT times was a v. plentiful place though - farmers had it good.

there are references in Homer to peoples where women rule - the 'amazons' that chop off one breast to hunt with bow and arrows...

the Queen of shabaea is another interesting character mentioned...though Queenship doesn't nec. indicate a general egalitarian society.

Teitua- we did that tour in April 2002- tall handsome Native American guy in his early 30s at a guess. Very very militant about matters Native American. Sounds like the same spiel we heard. From what we were told there were a lot of intercinine wars with other tribes, which is why they lived 50 m below the edge of the plateau down vertiginous ladders and walkways, while their corn grew up on the plateau. I wonder how many of them died falling off the cliff tbh, especially in childhood.

A few years ago I visited the Indian cliff dwellings at Mesa Verde, Colorado. At that place, the rangers take you around on a tour, and I can recall the guide saying that they'd excavated a fair number of burial sites there, and what they found was that not many of the people lived past their early 40s, and that's those who survived an infant mortality rate of about 50%. After a little pause to let that sink in, the ranger continued "...Which is about what you'd have found in Europe at that time (12th-13th centuries) with the difference that here at Mesa Verde, very few people died by violence, which was NOT the case in Europe."

3 score and ten? I think you'd have needed to be lucky.

hmm. if you're talking about early farming communities - 3 score years and ten was the life expectancy in the bible!

Chaotica, is that the same people in the article I linked to above? (The one with the "breastfeeding" fathers?)

I am an incredibly brilliant researcher. The book is on Google Books and I found the relevant passage:

books.google.com/books?ei=_jzsTJiAOIOosQPZ5NTHDw&ct=result&id=eQeYnCsjSAEC&dq=nisa&q=lazy+hunting

"Biggest joke ever" might be a bit of an exaggeration though.

The evidence about prehistoric life in Europe is so scanty that we really can't say we know much. I do recall hearing somewhere that drawings on cave walls are almost always men, but sculptures, including carved reliefs also in caves, are women. Nobody knows why.

On the other hand, there are primitive societies elsewhere that existed recently, or maybe still exist, and there weren't too many feminist paradises out there. I can remember reading a book called "Nisa, the life and words of a !Kung woman" about the African people often called Bushmen, and going by what Nisa said, life wasn't unbearable for women but men were definitely in charge, and did do the hunting. In fact she had a story about a woman whose husband was too lazy to go out hunting, and so the wife used to go in his place. Everyone else in the village thought it was the biggest joke ever.

One things for sure, it would be a brutal time when any injury through childbirth, hunting or whatever would prob result in a lingering death.

I suspect folk didn't live to be very old.

No idea how much they would have 'mated for life' but i do agree that it would most likely be the strongest, regardless of sex, that did the hunting.

Don't Baka women in Congo and CAR go hunting? (Abusive old name for them being Pygmies.) I think, iirc, that the whole tribe go but women play an equal part. (I think they traditionally hunt with nets and chase animals into them.) There is also an element of choice involved - or, rather, if you're good at hunting you get to go (and if not you stay at the camp).

I also saw an article once which said that men in Baka groups play a large role in childcare.

As far as the paleolithic drawings go, I think it's bit hard to tell. (Also, lets face it, the men probably liked to take credit for it anyway - too busy doing ritual paintings in the cave while the women were out hunting mammoths if you as me )

Well I've read Clan of The Cave Bear and the girl in that went hunting.

Although i do believe i saw a documentary once where cave women used pelicans to help with the washing

Actually the Flintstones et al would be a whole new feminist thread....

I'm pretty sure they didn't used to hit us over the head with clubs and drag us off by our hair....

....that would be modern man projecting much.

I thought that cave paintings were mostly of stick people with no obvious gender.

Also I thought that in some "primitive" (by which I mean untouched by modern western values) societies throughout the globe nowadays, the whole tribe goes hunting together? Didn't many native American tribes also go hunting as a whole tribe? Given how small neolithic family groups were (about 30 I thought from memory) I would be surprised if at least some women didn't go hunting as well simply because numbers would have been insufficient of healthy fit adults if only men had been eligible.

Oh dear, that sounds like all hearsay, but I swear it's gleaned from bits here and there and a variety of sources (OK, mostly National Geographic).

Fair point. Fertility goddess statues don't say a lot about hunting parties. But the conversation about wall paintings typically only presenting male figures just reminded me about that little factoid about the female form in ancient art.

And fertility goddess statues do suggest - even if they don't prove - that women were important in a spiritual sense in those societies. And arguably more important than they are in most contemporary religions to boot.

No Trillian it really does not matter the things done at such a time were done for efficiency life was certainly not as easy as it is now 'relatively' at least for the UK.

Does it matter?

What if all cave men hunted and all cave women gathered? So what then? Does it mean something that impacts upon the way we think society should be arranged?

There is this thread which goes onto quite an interesting discussion about the myths of the hunter/gatherers. Swallowedafly seemed to know quite a bit.

Never a good idea to read too much into studies of one particular hunter-gatherer society, since they are all different from each other (as industrialised societies differ from each other). But this is an interesting article on male and female roles in a contemporary hunter-gather society.