Debriefing: a wedding

Maisiethemorningsidecat, I see marriage as being patriarchal because it seems to me that it provides certain protections for the stay at home parent (who is usually female) in the event of divorce/death.
If, for example, a woman gives up her job to stay at home for a couple of years (or even longer) to bring up the children of the marriage and does not earn money, while her partner does earn money, in the event of divorcing the woman's contribution as a stay at home parent will (or should be) taken into account when it comes to divvying up the 'spoils'.
So even if a woman has not contributed a penny financially throughout the marriage, she will receive some form of financial provision all the same from the 'earning' spouse.
This to me is why marriage is patriarchal- protecting the woman.
I suppose 'patriarchal' does not have to be a negative thing.

I don't view marriage as a patriarchal institution at all, and I'm certainly no more dependent on dh financially than he is on me. In what way do you view marriage as being inequal?

Sorry, Sakura, only the first few lines should be addressed to you. The rest is to vezzie.

Sakura I think marriage is a patriarchal institution not how people actually marry.
If they get married with a massively expensive white wedding or with a simple register office service, it makes no difference.
It's just a matter of taste.

They will still be deemed to be dependent on another human being financially and, should they find themselves having to need certain benefits, they will be denied them if spouse is in employment.
Cannot you see that it is this what is repulsive about the assumptions of the state when it comes to marriage?
That the state uses a couple's romantic relationship to decide whether they receive certain monies or not?

vezzie, save your anger for the TRUE inequalities of actual marriage and see how people get married for what it is:
at best a joyful day of rituals and a bit of fun at worst an irrelevancy.

Matilda, I don't think it's a new perspective at all - it's pretty much what people have been saying on here. This wedding did not meet the OPs views of what a wedding should be according to her feminist priniciples (and of course, she didn't like the man her friend married). She hasn't spoken to her friend, she hasn't made any attempt to find out if she enjoyed the day - instead she's decided that her friend was miserable and came on here to be indulged and 'talk about it'. Which is why she really hasn't had the reception (see what I did there) she wanted.

Apart from my new bezzie mate Sakura that is, who is very keen for me to share her views of feminism.

Just a new perspective here, but in this day and age there's nothing to stop anyone making a wedding an event to express how and who they are. If you saw your friend in a new light, what it may have shown is that you may know aspects of her, but not all of her. She chose the way it all was. It can be a shock to see someone you think you know well in a new light. The event clearly didn't match up to your expectations.

Bugger all to do with feminism, perhaps, and everything to do with your disappointment in your friend not using the event to make a stand for your values, and therefore winning your approval. You can't change the world overnight, you can only change your world.

I realise this may be controversial, but ultimately the event proves that either some people prefer the old ways (no matter what the rest of us say), or your friend bowed to some kind of pressure from family and DH. This story doesn't end here, of course - you don't buy the fairytale endings do you? Observe as things unfold...

Keep hugging away if it makes you feel better about yourself

well, defintely you now, of course. Welcome into the fold

Is that the royal we? On whose behalf do you speak?

Waaait a minute...are you a stealth feminist activist?? We could do with some fresh blood around here.

No, the entire premise was not agreeing with me. 50% of your last post was agreeing with the OP who described a palpable sense of culmination of women's oppression over the centuries, and how you got what she meant. In actual fact, what the OP was describing has been actively challenged throughout this thread as being something that was entirely based on her views on one form of wedding, and unfair to her friend and her DH whose choice of wedding was really nothing whatsoever to do with her. All under the 'guise' of feminism on a public forum.

I absolutely agree with you, which was why that argument was the entire premise of my last post.

Read whatever you like into whatever you want. The fact is that, hard though it may be for you to accept because it would require you to challenge your own beliefs, women are perfectly capable of choosing and having the weddings they want. If you choose not to accept that because it doesn't fit your narrow view of feminism, then that's your problem and no-one elses.

but I absolutely agree with the people who say that marriage can be made modern, and tailor-made to fit women better, a pro-active egalitarian marriage. That's what I aim for in my own marriage.
BUt I think the OP was describing a different scenario to that one, she was describing a palpable sense of a culmination of women's oppression over the centuries symbolised by the way she didn't recognize the friend she knew on the wedding day. I get what she means and where she's coming from.

constrained choice, choices within the boundaries of limitations, limited "choices" for women have never been anything to do with feminism, though. IN the 1990s there was a "thing" , a fashion, if you like, to say that women chose oppressive practices, when the truth was they were making the best of a bad job with the limited options they had. THis "choice" concept has done a lot of damage to women's liberations

Feminism has been about liberation from gender-based oppression.

Yes Sakura - and now we're in the 21st century and women are more than able to think and speak for themselves, we still have them through choice.

Funny that.

My DH and I walked down the aisle hand in hand, we said the same vows, the chief bridesmaid gave the speech because she's close to us both, and my DH responded... as did I.

Weddings don't have to be horrible reminders of an enslaved past. After all, marriages weren't about love, that often, historically speaking. Yet now we think that's all they're about. I'm a feminist and my wedding wasn't upsetting, though in some ways it wasn't very traditional either.

Shame it was the patriarchy that invented weddings though, wasn't it

vezzie. I am no fan of weddings, either.
But I do think you are overthinking the traditional white wedding set-up and its meaning in reality.
For the majority of people I know, it has no real meaning attached to it-it's something they do because they fancy being the centre of attention in the eyes of everyone around them for a day (after all, they COULD go and get married in a register office, couldn't they?) and why not I say.
As for the 'giving away' by father aspect, given that most couples cohabit and even have children outside of marriage, I would have thought that unless the bride is a virgin who has been locked up in a castle all her life, this would have no significant meaning either (apart from being a ritual people enjoy-and why not)
Now I say to this: Not my cup of tea. Each to their own. Yes the showiness is annoying in a way and many aspects of it -the expense, bridezilla demands, get on my wick. But I will NOT pretend that most white weddings have any deep meaning for anyone-because it does not.

exactly, maisie. and let's not forget that this comes back to the fact that vezzie thinks the dh is a 'tosser'. that's what this is really about, imo.

And that's the crux of the matter - each marriage celebration is different, and each one special and individual to the couple involved. Whatever form it takes, it's really no-one else's place to comment, and certainly not on a public forum. I would be mortified if I thought that a friend of mine had shared her less than favourable views of my DH and my marriage in this way - esp. under the guise of 'feminism'

don't tell me where to post, vezzie. and the reason i KNOW that no-one felt that way is that ours was a very, very, very small wedding, okay? the neck on you telling me what my own wedding was like... you have some cheek, really you do...