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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Debriefing: a wedding

293 replies

vezzie · 22/11/2010 14:01

I went to a wedding at the weekend and ended up thoroughly depressed, as I often do after weddings. Please indulge me, because I want to talk about it.
The bride is one of the most dynamic, active, imaginative and intelligent people I know. She was patronised and belittled throughout ? ?who gives this woman ???? and during the speeches she looked very uncomfortable. I have never seen her so quiet and when it was clear that she didn?t like what was being said it seemed very strange that there was no opportunity for her to own the floor in her own style. I have never heard so little of her voice, ever, and yet she was notionally the centre of attention.
I suppose what is troubling me ? and there is no natural justice in what I am about to say - is that she is so close to the top of so many pecking orders (beautiful, clever, talented, well loved, well educated, professionally respected) that it seems obvious that her husband should be so near to the top of all the male pecking orders (tall, handsome, very rich, in a very well paying job) and yet unfair that this sort of man seems almost inevitably to bring the expectations that his wife will take a very traditional and subservient role. Without wanting to imply that anyone deserves to be pushed about, because they don?t, I suppose I am upset that this woman, who is brilliant, is now going to play second fiddle to a tosser for the rest of her life.

I hate weddings. I always start off all excited and filled with love and joy and enjoy the sentimental moment where you can look at the couple and do a mental 6-Feet-Under-like montage where you imagine them surrounded by children, growing older, surrounded by grand children, retiring together etc. Then at some point I am forced to realise that the whole thing is filling me with profound unease and it is as well if I am not too drunk or I have to find a cupboard to hide in and cry.

DP said, when I was telling him how sad I was feeling on Sunday, ?Why do you take it so personally?? I just shrugged and changed the subject. Later I thought, ?Because it is like this. Suppose you were invited to a housewarming party and you bought a present and wrote a card expressing all the good wishes that you have for the people in their new house, and you dressed up and turned up ready to celebrate and saw everyone else looking beautiful and happy and joyful, and the hosts offered to show you round and then you realised during the tour that the whole thing runs on a basement floor inhabited by slaves, it would slightly put a dampener on the occasion, especially if you were the same kind of person as the slaves.? This is of course a gross exaggeration.

We are not married. I often think we should be, and then I go to a wedding and I?m back to square 1.
What do feminists do about getting married?

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AitchTwoOh · 03/12/2010 13:58

it was really good, prune. vickery is a bid giddy about it all and she's over-fond of her ipad but it seemed like the women she was talking about just weren't miserable, they felt they had status and value. and while of course she only had a few accounts to read from, she really did seem to be extrapolating.
later on she did get out some diaries of a very frustrated 'spinster', though, who was raging at having to ask her brother for money, so i suppose you could make the claim that marriage was the better life, rather than a slave's life, for one of those class of women.

Unprune · 03/12/2010 13:42

Interesting - I really fancy watching that (not a lot of tv gets that reaction from me!).

AitchTwoOh · 03/12/2010 00:55

anyway blah blah blah, am watching At Home WIth The Georgians, with Amanda Vickery. really, really interesting actually, on the point of men being treated as juveniles until they were established enough financially to get married. she reads their diaries, which indicate that theirs were terribly lonely lives and that bachelors dreamed of being able to settle down with a family. am only halfway through so far but it's certainly very interesting wrt status and being taken seriously, never mind just general human loneliness, in men. i mean clearly we are talking about middle and upper classes but it seems like women were a lot more powerful historically (in the marriage 'transaction') than anyone here is giving them credit for.

Maisiethemorningsidecat · 02/12/2010 14:35

I'm not quite sure what "just because someone is a woman doesn't mean they aren't a woman-hater" means - I took it to be Sakura's response to my questioning her lack of apparent sisterhood.

Oh no - the confusion is spreading!

AitchTwoOh · 02/12/2010 14:30

sorry... [stunned face Shock]... did you just call me a woman-hater?!

AitchTwoOh · 02/12/2010 14:28

HUGE chunks of thread where maisie is here and i'm not, and vice versa. once again you are seeing things, sakura. fury, confusion, interrogation and now collusion... paranoid much? Wink

Maisiethemorningsidecat · 02/12/2010 14:27

Do you mean that you hate women? All women, or just those who disagree with you?

Oooh, a threesome - I've never had one of those, and I'm furious about that Grin

AitchTwoOh · 02/12/2010 14:26

lol, sakura. and YOU keep appearing too, does that make this a threesome? Grin

Sakura · 02/12/2010 14:24

well, who's the sidekick? you both only appear when the other is there

Maisie, just because someone is a woman doesn't mean they aren't a woman-hater

AitchTwoOh · 02/12/2010 14:24

and anyway, i'm the pwitty one.

Maisiethemorningsidecat · 02/12/2010 14:21

Now now, tetchy tetchy Sakura - where's your feminist, we're all in the sisterhood together against the evil patriarchy attitude? C'mon on, tsk tsk, you can do better that.

AitchTwoOh · 02/12/2010 14:19

?

Sakura · 02/12/2010 14:19

who's the sidekick out of you two?

AitchTwoOh · 02/12/2010 14:13

oh for god's sake. i wouldn't go hiding behind herbea, sakura. she was mostly talking about chaya's MiL heckling her speech, for starters.

Maisiethemorningsidecat · 02/12/2010 14:11

Ah, the old "it wisnae me"

OK, so why are you continuing to insist that people are furious?

Sakura · 02/12/2010 14:06

well..it wasn't me that first said people were angry at the OP, so unless you're suggesting it's a shared delusion, it's unlikely that it's a figment of my imagination

AitchTwoOh · 02/12/2010 14:04

see, being repeatedly told i am furious is now beginning to tick me off, sakura... Grin is that the plan? furious, confused and now 'giving people the third degree'? i mean, really, it's all sounding a bit desperate.

read my posts, look for any genuine signs of anger. you won't find them, because i don't feel them. okay? Smile

Maisiethemorningsidecat · 02/12/2010 14:01

Firstly, stop with the furious - it's a figment of your imagination.

Secondly, I'm quite, quite sure that no-one is going to be put off MN for life because Aitch, myself and others disagreed with them. Unless you are very, very new to MN you'll be well aware of the rather lively debates that rage on here at times. It's what makes it such an interesting place.

If you don't like it, then try Netmums. Or grow a thicker skin.

Big up the sisterhood!!

Smile
Sakura · 02/12/2010 13:54

it's not your responsibility to not put people off MN, but if enough people feel that they can't start a thread without people giving them the third degree in a furious way, then they're going to be put off, IMO

AitchTwoOh · 02/12/2010 13:50

well you read away, Sakura, it's all in your own head. and what's the crack about putting people off MN, since when was that my responsibility? what are you on about?

as for snobbery, again, what are you on about? this is a discussion... that is what i think is really going on here, i think this whole thread has bog-all to do with the patriarchy and everything to do with the fact that vezzie doesn't like 'pwitty fwocks' and is disappointed that her friend does. but go ahead and think something else, by all means, that's the point of this place, isn't it? Hmm

Maisiethemorningsidecat · 02/12/2010 13:44

Nooooooo Sakura - I can't take anymore. I need the again, I want to be welcomed into the fold. Why are you being like this, why????

Sakura · 02/12/2010 13:41

if you want to put people off MN you are certainly going the right way about it!

Sakura · 02/12/2010 13:40

why are you acting like snobbery is suddenly a crime on MN
Aitch, I read fury into your posts, into your entire posting style on this thread

AitchTwoOh · 02/12/2010 13:36

interesting use of 'confused', sakura, very curious.

because maisie and i don't agree with you we are showing 'fury' and we are 'confused'? why are you so intent on undermining us in this way? not very sisterly.

please read my posts, you will find neither confusion nor fury. i think that vezzie is trying to disguise snobbery with feminism. please see "You have the whole world on your side, with its padded cards with pictures of pwitty bwides in white fwocks on" for demonstration of such snobbery.

Maisiethemorningsidecat · 02/12/2010 13:33

Yesterday you were sending me and Smile and welcoming me into the fold....and here you are 24 hours later being so fickle and so cruel