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Original poster

Feminism and natural sex differences

162 replies

WriterofDreams · 20/11/2010 12:36

I am a woman, but I know very little about feminism, so this question is posed out of curiosity more than anything. Where do feminists generally stand on genetic/biological differences between men and women? By that I mean would a lot of feminists believe that they don't exist, or would they believe that they do exist but are irrelevant?

Just to give my current thinking on it (am open to having my mind changed) I do believe there are certain stable sex differences between females and males. This has been borne out by research into the way that girls and boys develop. I realise culture has a large role to play in these differences but I also believe it is not entirely the source of them.

Would like to hear other views.

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Original poster
WriterofDreams · 20/11/2010 14:16

That's true Hopeforthebest I've seen some very interesting documentaries about cross-gendered people whose parents chose a gender for them when they were babies and then child underwent surgery to assign their genitalia to that gender. They were then brought up as that gender with all the cultural training that entails. As they grew up some these transgendered people felt they were the "wrong" gender and when genetically tested as an adult found that they were actually, genetically, the other gender. To me, this suggests that some difference was present in their brain which was not overcome by cultural training.

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Original poster
WriterofDreams · 20/11/2010 14:11

I can assure you my depression was not the result of circumstances. In fact, my life was going very well, I was about to get a first in my course and I had a lovely apartment, two gorgeous kittens and a great husband. Depression is an illness something that I always knew on a logical level but that I am now certain of having suffered it. The general assumption that it is circumstantial is just as pernicious as the assumptions that feminism fights against IMO. I was suicidal, had no energy, felt like the world was crashing in, and all my family could say was that I should look on the bright side. Would looking on the bright side cure schizophrenia? No. Well it doesn't cure depression either.

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Sakura · 20/11/2010 14:10

anastaisia, I can believe that about men and their hormones. I read they even get peak fertile times in the month too, just like women

HopeForTheBestExpectTheWorst · 20/11/2010 14:09

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn on request of the poster.

Sakura · 20/11/2010 14:09

I mean, under our patriarchal system any divergence form the male/masculine- female/feminine norm is frowned upon and can even be dangerous (gay-bashing, where gay men can end up dead and the fact that "lesbian" is used as an insult)
UNder patriarchy, people wouldn't choose to step out of this norm, because of the consequences meted out to them when they do.

Sakura · 20/11/2010 14:07

even garden-variety depression is most likely the result of societal circumstances. Women do have a lot of pressures on them that men don't have. Just countless ways they have to survive the way society has been set up.

re. homosexuality, well yes, the fact that gay and lesbians (and even transexuals) get so much stick tells me that it's clearly not a 'choice' and there's an element of biology involved. My gay friend told me he did originally fancy females but that changed in his teen years. Got no idea what that signifies.

Original poster
WriterofDreams · 20/11/2010 14:00

It was just common or garden depression I had last year, this is my first baby. I am worried about PND but I am very aware of the signs of depression so I'm hoping that'll help me to nip any potential problems in the bud. The only thing that helped me to recover last year was my lovely DH who basically made me rest for 6 months. I am now almost back to normal which I'm sure I would not have been without that.

On the subject of sex differences, I just find it hard to believe that everything is culturally led. Surely if that were the case there would be no such thing as homosexuality? The fact that some people go entirely against the grain of society and in some cases risk their lives to fulfill their innate sexual preference means that this huge part of our life is to a large extent biologically rather than culturally defined?

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anastaisia · 20/11/2010 13:56

men very likely have hormonal cycles too though. of 4-6 weeks on average; men have reported that they have a low period, and a high period; during the high period they not only feel better - but have a lower body weight.

Sakura · 20/11/2010 13:52

Aww...
Are you worried about getting PND again? That must be weighing on your mind.
I didn't have it as bad the second time, mainly because I refused to look after everyone else and I was (shock horror) selfish and just took care of my own needs .

The first time round I was so worried about everyone else's feelings: in-laws, husband, everyone. Second time I thought "this is the one time in her life a woman gets to put herself first"

Original poster
WriterofDreams · 20/11/2010 13:38

Yup Sakura, I'm 35 weeks pregnant and have already bawled twice today.

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Sakura · 20/11/2010 13:32

What about pregnancy hormones! I cried at every little news item, every squashed slug, everything

Sakura · 20/11/2010 13:29

Yes.. I think I'm beginning to remember why I don't miss my periods.
Also, physical things like chocolate. I'm not an organized person but I remember thinking "Period must be due soon" because I'd find myself devouring loads of chocolate

Original poster
WriterofDreams · 20/11/2010 13:27

For about three days before my period I get far more short tempered and weepy about things. It always follows the same pattern so I know it's PMS. I can tell myself there's nothing to get angry/upset about, but that makes no difference, I still cry and rage.

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Sakura · 20/11/2010 13:22

One thing I do believe is that breastfeeding makes a mother calmer, and can alleviate PND sometimes. And I don't miss my periods, that's for sure!

Sakura · 20/11/2010 13:20

Not sure about PMS. As I say I've only had 1 period in 5 years (!).

I do recall my moods being cyclical, and could possibly have been down to the time of the month. OTOH, they could have been put down to the general stresses I was under and there may not have been a real pattern. DO you get moodier or depressed before your period?

Original poster
WriterofDreams · 20/11/2010 13:16

So what about PMS? That's hormone related and changes the way you think and feel about things. I definitely get PMS.

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Sakura · 20/11/2010 13:14

In other words,PND is most likely a normal reaction to the way society treats new mothers. Expecting them to get on with it and "cheer up" is just the tip of the iceberg

earwicga · 20/11/2010 13:13

Writer - sorry to hear about what happened to you last year.

It's cod science though to say there is one definitive theory about depression - I think it is a bit of both circumstantial and chemical. And the chemicals involved aren't testosterone/oestrogen - the primary sex hormones, afaik.

Sakura · 20/11/2010 13:11

'circumstancial' in a feminist POV means the ways that women are supposed to cope in a patriarchal society. In other words, the ways that women are forced to cope under our current system. The isolation, for example. The invisibility of motherhood. The drop in status (you have to give up work). IN some cases, birth trauma or C-section. The lack of practical help (women are expected to do their own housework in western cultures). There are many factors that need to be looked at before we say PND is hormonal.

There is no way you can cheer up under these circumstances. Drugs can help alleviate the symptons and are often necessary to make life bearable.

Original poster
WriterofDreams · 20/11/2010 13:07

The evidence around both typical depression and PND show that they are rarely circumstantial. Of course there is such a thing as reactive depression but this is a different thing to the illnesses PND and depression which are caused by chemical and hormonal imbalances. If they were purely circumstantial then anti-depressants would have no effect.

I don't want to turn this into a debate about depression but it is the "circumstantial" idea of what causes depression that made my life hell last year. I was desperately mentally ill, despite the fact that my life was perfectly fine. Others couldn't see that and expected me to cheer up. Not possible when your brain just refuses to do so.
PND is the same, it is hormone induced and no amount of practical help is automatically going to turn it off. Help will allow the mother to heal from what is a terrible illness.

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Sakura · 20/11/2010 13:06

INteresting question, Alice world.
WHen DD was born, I saw that DH had an instant bond with her. I can't explain it, I just know it was real, and it was because he was her biological father.
BUt men can't give birth, so they do not have the physical experience that women have, not least the pain that comes from bringing new life into the world. I think birth is very spiritual (Am on El Vino tonight)

motherinferior · 20/11/2010 13:04

How would I know? Because we inhabit a society in which those things are so very assumed, so culturally embedded, that the 'natural' and the constructed can't be distinguished.

And in any case you have to put it in its social context. Physics is for Clever People. People with a Rigorous Brain. THe fact that art, or writing, is complex and difficult is not acknowledged to the same extent.

And so, yet again, we see that Girls Are A Bit Thick. Sweet, arty creatures, but a bit thick.

AliceWorld · 20/11/2010 13:03

Re the maternal stuff, I wonder how anyone would feel about something that had been part of them for so long, they had given birth too, and was with them all the time. Of course men can't experience it, therefore we'll never know whether it is 'innate' differences rather than a particular set of circumstances resulting in a particular reaction.

Original poster
WriterofDreams · 20/11/2010 13:01

So motherinferior would you put the fact that women do tend to be interested in different things than men entirely down to culture? Do you believe that equal numbers of women would like football and physics as men in a different society?

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Sakura · 20/11/2010 13:01

Yes, the idea of a male/masculine brain or a female/feminine brain is just rubbish