Ruin your favourite books/films with a spot of feminist analysis

Much Ado has some lovely bits, but the main incident is all about a woman's virginity. And as part of their scheme, the conspirators got a maidservant involved in a sexual incident and we're left to think that she was "no better than she should be". It's not all fun.

Yeah, but Seven, at least we know Measure for Measure is sexist and nasty. I'm more bothered by finding that the same lines (slightly recycled) don't need re-writing when they're used for the man who forces women, and for the 'romantic hero'. I do like my Shakespeare and I am aware that this should be read in the context of his time - what annoys me is that it's not taught it schools.

If you wanted to teach Shakespeare and get into feminist issues, it would be very easy. It would be easy to argue that male characters come across very badly when they are being at all sexist. It would be nice if that were taught.

How did I miss this thread?! How?

Anyway - I absolutely love Much Ado and I would happily run off into the sunset with Beatrice or Benedick. But I do find it makes me shudder when productions gloss over some of the dodgy bits. Right at the end, when Beatrice and Benedick are all loved up, she starts flirting with him again and he says 'Peace, I will stop your mouth'. And that's it, she doesn't get to speak again.

There's also some dialogue that's used both in Richard III with the women he's forcing to marry him, and in Much Ado with B&B. Creepy.

(Sorry, I sound like a huge nerd but I've just been trying to teach this to someone who's only seen the rom-com version.)

Ahem, BelleDame, the whole point of this thread was that we owned up to the places where our treasured stories did not quite stand up to feminist analysis. If we start giving things a pass because we have fond memories of snogging Jason from 5B in the back row of the Ritzy then it all falls apart!

bigkidsmademe - Have you seen or read Twilight? Because it's her dad, not her uncle. I am extremely happy for you to complain about it but please the feminist-rating works much better if you are accurate.

(also sex doesn't = death - sex within marriage = eternal life and babies)

And it's Danny in Grease, not Johnny.

Actually, are you doing something subversive that I just don't get?

I agree that both try to change for the other in Grease, it's just tht he's a bit pathetic and can't change so she has to. Which is not a great message for children of either sex - you must change so the person you like will like you.

Perhaps we can grant Grease a special dispensation because, erm, well, er, because we can?

does it?? I want Grease to be acceptable! I love it

How about encouraging Frenchie to go back to school rather than drop out and be a beautician?

He toys with being a jock and buys the jacket, but it doesn't survive until the end of the movie, once it looks as though she's likely to sleep with him... in fact, as soon as she turns up in the skintight black outfit the jacket comes off right away...

fucking Twilight

Bella running round cleaning and cooking for her uncle despite the fact that he has lived alone, perfectly happily, up until she moves to Forks. Plus the violence against women by the werewolves and the 'have sex and you die' plot

But I want to defend Grease! OK, Sandy changes to get Johnny... but he changes too! He becomes a jock and buys that awful jacket and all the others laugh at him. So not sexist to me, just equal opportunities pathetic

Snigger, though, at the idea of the bad karaoke scene being featured in the musical. BJ was meant to be tuneless

er
££££££££££££££££??

Oh dear god
(Why does everything have to be turned into a musical?)

from Wikipedia...
'A musical version is currently in the works, set to hit the West End stage sometime in 2011. British pop singer Lily Allen has written the score and lyrics, and Stephen Daldry will be directing, joined by his co-worker Peter Darling, who will serve as choreographer. An official cast for the production has not yet been set in stone, but workshops for the show have already begun with TV actress and star of Legally Blonde the Musical, Sheridan Smith, in the title role.'

It was - the first book was iirc directly lifted from the columns, and the second was far more 'written'.

Bridget Jones was originally a column in (iirc) the Independent which I adored at the time - it was very original and 'everywoman'.

Hello !Dilys - good to see you!

My theory about SATC, which, I warn you, is based on little information and a bunch of stereotyping, is that early episodes were written by gay men, to be played by men in frocks. In later series when it took off, the stars gained more power as actors on hit shows always do, the stories became more realistic and more female writers were brought on.
I listened to the director/writer's commentary on the first film (the original creator of the series) and bless him, he loves the characters and he means well, but he has no more idea of what it's like to be a WOHM than my cat.

God yes Vezzie.

I have to confess, I really liked the Bridget Jones books. I avoided them initially and I remember ranting to an older woman that I wasn't interested in the view of women as shallow, vapid, man-obsessed etc. She persuaded me that they were wicked and funny, and not likely to make me turn into a twit. I enjoyed them at the time.

The film, though, that was atrocious. We weren't to laugh at her, we were to sympathise with her. They made her vulnerable where in the books she was self-obsessed. I suppose a deluded and vain character is a bit harder to make money out of, in comparison to an infantilised, cow-eyed sad-act.

(I can't even speak about the second film. I think as a culture we need to agree to forget about that one!)

I hated knowing that men watched SATC (like I hated it whenever I saw a man reading Bridget Jones) because I thought it confirmed them in their siliest views of us.

(I also hated that they ate such fatty foods and drank as much as they wanted, never walking anywhere or otherwise breaking a sweat, while being thin as pins. Setting unrealistic metabolic expectations for women over 24!)

Starbuck in Battlestar Galactica was a man originally. I think the decision to make that character female is single handedly responsible for the success of the series (sweeping exaggeration alert) - it's the most interesting character in the show.