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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Should women / carers be paid for caring for their 'own' kids?

107 replies

AdelaofBlois · 07/11/2010 12:35

Had a nice argumentative (if in this climate purely hypothetical) discussion last night about whether carers should be paid for looking after their children. Three arguments ran thus:

  1. Familial childcare is, even if not done by mothers, predominantly women's work. It is time consuming, skilled and exhausting, contributes enormously in both the short and long term to the economy, yet the women doing it receive no monetary recognition, and indeed risk their security to do so. Financial recognition of the work was a long-standing, although now underplayed, aim of the women's movement.
  1. That, until men are equally represented in caring roles, the payment would represent further legal incentive for women to stay at home, which may not necessarily be about their choice. If set at a level that altered decisions it would act as a state scheme to force women back into the home, if too low simply be a drain on resources which creates the same ideological pressure.
  1. (where I got bogged down as the wine took effect Sad) Payment would have to be set against standards because the justification would be value to society. It would seem unfair to pay fulltime carers and not their employed counterparts unless we were willing for the state to say that in all circumstances SAHPs were 'best'. It would also seem unfair to pay 'poor' parents (at the far end of the scale, say abusive ones) money, but monitoring this would involve the state in childcare in a way hitherto unthought of. The whole thing would be a mechanism for enforcing standards of childcare (HE who pays the piper) which reflected neither women's choices nor a feminist outlook.

Conversation drifts off onto CBeebies crushes, this writer feeling Smile but Confused.

Basically, just wondered what others thought. Posted here because don't want this to be the SAHM vs WOHM women-hating discussion it might become elsewhere.

OP posts:
ISNT · 07/11/2010 19:40

How on earth are we ever going to improve the status and appreciation of "women's work" if something as basic as saying that a newborn baby needs someone to care for it causes such difficulties, to the point of a denial that that is even what is happening.

sarah293 · 07/11/2010 19:37

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ISNT · 07/11/2010 19:36

I'm not saying otherwise riven. What I am questioning is why looking after a newborn can no longer be classified as "caring" for it. What should it be called?

sarah293 · 07/11/2010 19:33

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ISNT · 07/11/2010 19:32

What is it then? What should it be called? When did this change in the language happen? Is this part of the reason that many papers find it so easy to slate parents - what they are doing has been reduced to - what - nothing? If people no longer accept that looking after a newborn is a caring role then I don't know where we are TBH.

ISNT · 07/11/2010 19:30

Looking after a newborn is not caring for it? Seriously?

ISNT · 07/11/2010 19:29

This is very interesting. I don;t understand this drive to say that looking after children has nothing to do with caring. I would say that I care for my baby - how has this change in the language come about? Or is it more than a change in the language, is it something more fundamental to do with the way people perceive families and especially mothers?

sarah293 · 07/11/2010 19:29

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ISNT · 07/11/2010 19:28

So looking after a newborn is not a caring role? I mean in general, rather than in the terms defined by the benefits people.

sarah293 · 07/11/2010 19:28

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AnnieLobeseder · 07/11/2010 19:27

ISNT - I would make the distinction where alternative care is widely available at a reasonable price or not. Childcare for an NT child is widely available, and though a bit expensive, not out of the reach of most working parents.

Care for sick or disabled children (or adults) is NOT widely available, and very much more expensive. Hence a family member being forced to do the caring, often at the expense of their own career.

I really don't think the difference is 'artificial' at all.

AnnieLobeseder · 07/11/2010 19:23

I'm with Riven. Parents who choose to stay home and raise their own children instead of earning money and paying for childcare should not receive anything. They are making a choice to do so.

But carers; mothers or daughters or husbands or wives or fathers.... anyone who has given up their career to look after a sick or disabled family member should be paid. And they should be paid well - national average at least. More often than not they have no choice because if they don't do it, no-one will. It's 24/7 work and totally exhausting, physically and mentally.

ISNT · 07/11/2010 19:22

You don't "parent" a baby when you're BFing it at 3am or changing it's nappy or whatever. You're caring for it IYSWIM.

ISNT · 07/11/2010 19:21

The line between looking after an elderly person who needs assistance, looking after someone who is disabled, and looking after a baby or young child, is a fairly artificial one though isn't it. It's one that has been invented by the benefits people, rather than it actually being a wholly and fundamentally different thing to be doing. They're all caring roles.

sarah293 · 07/11/2010 19:17

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ISNT · 07/11/2010 19:16

I am always interested when people don't see looking after children as being a caring role.

sarah293 · 07/11/2010 19:14

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ISNT · 07/11/2010 19:12

I think good quality universal affordable childcare has to be in there.

Also msrisotto's points about moving to a situation where parents look after children, rather than mothers. The idea being that if more men took "maternity" leave, and did more hands on stuff, then things would improve for all parents and the status of this work would increase.

ISNT · 07/11/2010 19:10

Surely this is intended to be a theoretical discussion about how to elevate the status of the very hard and important job of looking after children? It's about ideals/utopia rather than a genuine policy suggestion for the condems Grin

blueshoes · 07/11/2010 19:04

To answer the OP, no. People don't need financial incentive to reproduce. Not all parents are good, people take the piss, no quality control. Lifestyle choice, no money, in good times or bad.

moraldisorder · 07/11/2010 18:18

And wouldn't there be unscrupulose (SP?) types just having kids so they could earn?

This is a bad idea.. My opinion echos mrsrisotto and portotreasonandplot's.

ISNT · 07/11/2010 18:14

Hmmmm complicated. All good points in OP.

I suppose if you provided good quality and cheap childcare universally, then gave an amount for every child to pay for this, but the parent could keep it if they wanted to do the care themselves.... That would work I think?

I think that (as per your point 3) you need to be wary of the payment restricting choices rather than assisting families IYSWIM.

bobblemeat · 07/11/2010 17:57

I don't like the idea of my lifestyle choice becoming a job, and not only a job, a public sector jobs so members of the public can rant at me about how they pay my wages and I should be doing x,y and z when I want to do a,b and c. I would also be concerned that women who want to work and put their dcs in childcare will be berated even more because it would be a clear choice to spend time away from their children because they would rather be at work rather than for financial reasons (assuming the new job of getting on with your life is suitably well paid).

PortoTreasonAndPlot · 07/11/2010 17:43

But is quite possible to have children AND a job. I know - I do. My family going back generations did too. My gg grandmother had a huge number of children, AND a job - it is listed on her census return. This idea where you stay home solely to devote yourselves to your little darlings and do arts and crafts etc is a totally modern invention. It even postdates the start of the welfare state.

In mho, raising children is a responsibilty, one that should be shared amongst the family ideally, but it is NOT a paid JOB.

msrisotto · 07/11/2010 17:33

I don't think parents should be paid to look after their own children. Maternity leave should be parental leave, flexible working should be easier and it should become the norm that 2 parent families share childcare responsibilities 50:50.

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