Is it non-feminist to wear make-up?

I often wonder what I'll do when I'm an old lady and make up looks worse than no make up. (Thinking of the stage when you are so wrinkly that foundation would be a disaster and you have so many vertical lines around your mouth lipstick is a no-no as well.)

I am a feminist but I would never leave the house without at least powder and mascara and preferably foundation and blusher too. Partly because I like the effect, partly because I'm insecure, partly because I am conscious of the effects of aging. (Had v. v. v. good skin until practically the last minute of my 30s and it disappeared overnight, sadly.)

btw, this is sort of tongue-in-cheek given I (a) am a corporate lawyer (and a kick-ass one at that, certainly not scared of arguing with loud overbearing men or women) (b) often don't get time/can't be arsed/have too sensitive skin to wear make up and (c) have never really felt I wanted or could fall back on "feminine wiles" to get where I wanted. And where I have been on the wrong end of sexual harassment I've been very angry indeed, and would be if I saw it happening at work. I STILL think it's interesting how the make-up "thing" fits in at work, tho, and in an ideal world it just wouldn't. The world is, however, for from ideal and in the meantime, while the dribblers are abroad (dribbling is also not harassment, not until they do something more), one has to deal with them one way or another.

And actually, yes, there are some female partners who didn't get there on their professional ability. Don't like it, but it is the case.

oops, cross post.

oh, no. i haven't done it yet. i'm still scruffy curly of hair and make-up less, and clean. honest.

was just referring to this job application i'm working on, where i'm going to have to bite the co-ordination bullet and come up with something coiffed and glamoreux in order to persuade the (small c) conservative women of a certain age that dominate the arena that i am a worthy candidate. i think accessories stand a better chance than my usual 'i'm here, and i'm good, so hire me' air. compromise, compromise. except, like you say, i don't think leaving the make up out of the big hair/ matching purse and shoes ensemble will be a winner.

i'm usually of the opinion that confidence is just as sexy hireable.

Lots of men in the media are having botox etc. Simon Cowell?

Madwoman, she would have liked the mall trip. Will take your comments on board btw. She is totally individual and suppose I am gently encouraging her to fit in when it comes to parties etc.

I can remember it being very fashionable not to wear make-up, especially for young women at Uni. It's done a U turn in recent years, perhaps it's just fashion. Women should be able to dress how they feel comfortable and to please themselves. I think most do.

oh come on they both do. Both are being dehumanizing in their attitudes.

madwoman that would be disturbing all right! Did you wear no make up but big up your hair a leetle too much..?

I'm not saying that you "have to" wear make up, btw, I often don't, but I am interested in how I and anyone else is perceived with and without it, and whether if you are "ugly" you will always be at a disadvantage in any situation where you are trying to bring someone else round to your way of thinking. I suspect it might be the case, in which case, although I object to the 15% remark, it is just the way life is. We reproduce and therefore we are.

i pulled a chin hair out this morning.

and mused on what would have happened if i hadn't.

dh shaves every day. he has to for work.

i'd like men to be able (and to be encouraged) to wear make up every day, multi coloured. contour their cheeks with blush. mascara, (preferably lengthening and millionising) and whiten their teeth. please.

then i'll have a go.

tis one of the reasons i admire eddie izzard.

Madwoman, I love you too

Surely the point of feminism is to gain equality for women. To my mind this means having the right to do anything you bloody well like (within the law and your own moral code). So if you like wearing make-up and high heels, wear them. Don't let what some man says cloud your judgement - even if he is your dad. Your body, your choice. You don't have to look like a man to be his equal.

I personally think men look better clean-shaven rather than with beards. Ditto women.

i got a first in english, and can safely say i wore no make up at all to uni. ever.

but i did get called maggie thatcher a lot, which i don't think was meant to be a compliment...

It's not that odd Dittany, I've been living with an academic these last 17 years - we know what we're talking about! And it depends on your university - at mine we spent a lot of time having to defend our theses in small groups. And my job is just the same, lots of negotiation. So I am really interested in what makes someone a good persuader/communicator.

You seem determined to jump to one end of the spectrum or the other. I just pointed out that there is somewhere in between leering and not noticing. Never mind!

hester, i think i love you, and i'm a non make-up wearing hetero.

witches i'll cross her name off the mall trip

sticky - that goes right back to my earlier dilemma. it's not even about how provocative you are really - it's about what's expected in any given situation.

when women dress provocatively for men in a business scenario, i worry that it is both normalising and demeaning from a male pov. it is a choice, but i do worry that it then becomes less of a choice, and more of a political standpoint for other women. ie to have to choose not to conform in that manner.

whereas me, i just have to choose whether to find jewellery and a swishy scarf, and big up my hair, in order to conform. oh, and match my nail polish to my outfit. (the horror of having something that could be described as an 'outfit'...)

i would never tell a woman she shouldn't 'flaunt it', but i would remind a man that it is her choice and nothing to do with him at all. in power relationships like colleges/ work, it's a total stereotype - male tutor sleeps with sexy young thang, boss shags secretary. i don't know why i bother to worry about it tbh - it's been the status quo forever.

Madwoman, I know what your are saying and have just asked her and she laughed and said she knows she has a choice. To me it's normal to wear make-up on a night out. It's certainly not anti-feminist.

I've been a lesbian feminist for over a quarter century and I always wear full make-up. And have long hair. And I could mount a whole defence of that, but it's more honest to acknowledge that at least part of it (alongside actually enjoying applying it and wearing it) is because of the immense social benefits I get from looking like a conventional woman, and a conventionally attractive woman, which mitigates in part the social cost I pay for being an out lesbian.

Now I'm middle-aged, what I'm getting is to fit in with the other mothers at the schoolgate. I look like them and I mix well with them, which is important to me and I feel will help my daughters. At work, I get to be seen first and foremost as a professional, not as the office lesbian. When I was younger, and cuter, I got loads of attention and appreciation as, basically, the hot girl who nobody expected to be gay, but was. Which was like balm to the soul, as throughout childhood and adolescence I'd felt unattractive, unpopular, the 'wierd girl' who didn't fit in and didn't dare to be open about who I was.

I'm not defending any of this, just acknowledging it. I have always been full of admiration for women who are brave enough to defy social convention in their physical appearance, particularly butch dykes. I suppose this is my mitigation: wearing make-up is these days an unimportant part of my life. I'm happy to be seen without it. I don't judge others on whether they wear it or not. I think that, across the board, I work hard to contribute towards social change, and what I do in the world is more important than what I do to myself.

And I do really, really love make-up.

witches - lol, see my post above - was going to ask if your dd wanted to come to the mall with me tomorrow...

i'm just a bit shocked that you would be encouraging her to wear it, when she had said she didn't want to... dd1 is just at the stage where she wants to wear a bit of make-up to a party, but only because her friends do. it's fine - i understand peer pressure, but i'm encouraging her to think about why she's doing it. not stopping her, just she knows it's a choice. i'm just a bit curious why your default position is 'wear it' when she is at the wondering stage.

that's just telling her it's the right and expected thing to do surely? not something that's a choice?

Groping would involve touching, wouldn't it Dittany?

Dittany - eg, law, English, MML, History - where much of what you do is persuade someone else of your point of view. (I reckon you did have at least some of these at your university!!)

What I'm getting at is that there is somewhere in between sexual harassment and completely not noticing what the other person looks like. And that most people probably do fall somewhere in the middle ground (apart from DP who is too busy thinking higher thoughts, obviously!) And I do think it's interesting to ponder how much of someone's perceived skills at "communicating" or "charming" is to do with ticking (even subconscious) "attractiveness" boxes. And how much we can even do about that even if we knew for sure.

Madwoman, Oh come on, I don't force her if she really didn't want to she wouldn't, she is just questioning it atm and may decide she wants to be natural. Don't know if you have a teen DD but mums are there to give a bit of advice.

I find light foundation doesn't harm your skin and can dry up mild breakout.