A thread about annyoing re-writings of history

Sakura, that novel does sound fascinating, I must read it!

I once had a conversation with some very academic, bright people (I was way out of my depth, I was 19), and one of the things they hypothesized was that genius is a very masculine quality: all that selfish, slightly anti-social, single-minded purpose. It was when Simon Baron-Cohen was just starting to make a big thing about autism, talent in maths and the 'extreme male brain'.

I didn't have a lot to say then but it annoys me now that the way they'd defined genius is very much a construct of a masculine society (cf. the romantic poets yakking on about how one must be solitary to 'create'). It'd exclude people like Shakespeare or Chaucer. I do think that women are often marginalized because historically they've not been able to affect the same lifestyles that are now associated with being a genius - we expect people to be lonely and a bit anti-social, and for such a long time, it wasn't easy for women to live alone because of the way society looked down on that.

WHat a good thread.
I know someone who employed female postdocs and immediately told them 'I don't believe that women can do science well: you will find me difficult but that's your problem" and finally was done for it but you know, still continues. Since one of his female postdocs is an accredited genius I find it funny (as does she, but with provisos: he was haaaaaard work).

That's "thought"...

I want to punch him.

He's too stupid to continue his thought to its conclusion -- why send girls to school at all? This is the Taliban walking among us.

nickelbabe - I read the article you linked to with amazement. Sadly, I expect he is not alone in his thoughts.

Did you see the "thought for the moment" on his homepage? He actually believes the justice system is stacked against men!

well, 'genius' tends to be a matter of opinion.

i quite like recognising the 'larger dwarves' as twere, that stand on the shoulders of giants, those people that made those leaps of understanding that took us over borders. though it may seem at present that the big fish have already been landed in terms of scientific uderstanding, i'm sure there's more stuff out there to be explained...rambling. But i think people are unwilling to pply the term 'genius' to women, for one thing, tis a masculine term...

i haven't read The tale of Genji - does it translate as a masterpiece ?

I agree totally that Sappho deserves a greater mention, though perhaps her sexuality is also an issue in her lack of popularity.

and I found this article written by a man who thinks women still shouldn't be trained as doctors when I was looking for information on the real life of the nurse from Casualty 1907, the one who wanted to be a doctor, but wasn't allowed.

I've just googled women doctors, because I couldn't think of a name of that famous one who posed as a man in order to get her medical degree..

anyway, I foudn a wikipedia article on women doctors thought it sounded interesting.

Charlotte Bronte wrote:

"...Averse to personal publicity, we veiled our own names under those of Currer, Ellis, and Acton Bell; the ambiguous choice being dictated by a sort of conscientious scruple at assuming Christian names positively masculine, while we did not like to declare ourselves women, because - without at that time suspecting that our mode of writing and thinking was not what is called 'feminine' - we had a vague impression that authoresses are liable to be looked on with prejudice; we had noticed how critics sometimes use for their chastisement the weapon of personality, and for their reward, a flattery, which is not true praise..."

Gawd, I just went to look for the Nobel prize winners/nominees this year.
So far can't see a single woman.

I wouldn't say JK Rowling is a genius, though.

If you're asking about scientists, one of the problems is that although (I think) equal numbers of women start out on a postgraduate path, like every other industry, you have to work very hard to continue doing the same job after having a child as you did before it. A career break sets you back.

There most certainly are women who are ace scientists and who are well known and well respected in their fields - their recognition is lower key than we are exposed to, but it is there. Most of science is people slogging away on teeny, tiny little bits of knowledge, not headline stuff.

Yes this one cuts both ways -

the 'pit brow lass' et al may be currently increasingly written out of history, and there are past scientists authors et who don't receive prper recognition - but on the other hand - sexism did do a really good job of keepin talented women down, and that does leave us with a history where you have to in many fields, the most revolutionary contributors were men. This does not man women couldn't have done the same, just that they were kept from doing so.

if i think of philosophers for instance - Nietzsche rises head and shoulders above the men of his time (IMO all of them, but you'd find few others of equal standing, Marx perhaps....) - the barriers preventing a woman of the same class attaining the same standing were hard, all-but utterly impenetrable.

To pretend one of the lady authors of the same time did attain the same standing would be a re-writing of history.

George Eliot chose that name in order to be taken seriously - it wasn't in order to get published but she knew no-one would view her work as of scholarly intention without a veil of masculinity.

sexism didn't just prevent women being recognised-it also prevented them achieving greatness.

What that shoud make us wary of, is the sttus of current female scientists and authors - why is JK Rowling never termed a 'genius'? Why are so few nobel prize winners women too? There are still barriers preventing women attinin the highest positions in academic and public life, and there is also a lack ofrecognition for what they do achieve.

oh yes, Ayla and Jondalar. He was a fab lover IIRC but then I suppose porn hadn't been invented then to confuse the poor men about what women actually like.

Thinking over this thread late at night, I suddenly remembered the Jean Auel novels, Clan of the Cave Bear and so on, and had a bit of a laugh. Her heroine seems to have invented civilisation single-handed, from horseriding to the wheel, and many other nifty inventions I have forgotten about over the years.

Maybe going a bit too far the other way?

Not just fed and watered; I imagine (without much justification except what is known about primitive people in today's world) that communities that didn't know anything about treatment and prevention of illness, parasites, or management of childbirth and the perinatal period, would have died out just as quickly as communities that were raided by a group of he-men. Women might have been the keepers of that sort of knowledge and may have passed on useful information to other societies if they became enslaved.

Theresaholeinyourmind wrote - "Recently though, I have noticed that women are again being written out of the equation, as I find umpteen references to Man the Mighty Hunter/Gatherer."

I have recently read "The Whole Woman" by Germaine Greer for the bookclub and she mentions that male hunters only do the occasional hunt for ceremonial feasts and sport, but it's the women gathers who keep everyone fed and watered on all other occasions.

For hundreds of years, historians have very often attributed actions of women in history to emotion rather than e.g rational political ability.

For example, Boudica is said by numerous historians to have attacked the Romans as revenge for the murder of her family, with the implication that she was not motivated by the same motives as an unemotional male chief, who would attack for the survival of the tribe as a whole.

Sakura, that's the ultimate tragedy, isn't it? the peaceful communities wiped out by, oh ,yes!, man's desire to conquer and control.

Instead of learning from those communities, they enslave them.
(that's possibly another debate)

Thanks math and vesuvia, I guess that answers my question. Interesting.