"Jamie Oliver has son at 4th attempt"...

I'm one of 4 and my mum didn't like people to think she had 'tried' for a boy or was disappointed by girls, so when asked about us she used to say 'I have 4 chidren - a girl, a boy, and two girls'. The larger the family the more likely people are to think you have kept breeding purely to have a child of one sex or the other, and she hated people thinking her girls were just 'attempts' for a boy. She's not very feminist at all but in this regard she obviously felt she had a point to make!

I do get it. I have four boys and I would have loved a daughter. I doesn't really matter, of course and I would never want my boys to know about it but sometimes I see things like this when buying nappies for ds4 and I do get a little pang! So then I go and buy something like this instead to cheer myself up. Costs me a fortune!

I think Jamie did let it slip after the third little girl was born and Jools was annoyed with him!

"Interestingly, there was a programme on Radio 4 the other morning (it could have been WH) in which they were discussing China's one child policy. Because of the restriction, parents are only to invest emotionally and financially in one child,and this had led to the status of daughters being raised. That was really heartening to hear."

But the main side-effect of the One Child Policy was that a whole generation of baby girls were aborted/killed at birth/abandoned.

I have 4 girls (plus two m/c's) and find Jamie Oliver's attitude quite sad, I don't think a father is missing out any by raising girls. Dp gets negative comments about being outnumbered on a regular basis but it hasn't made him desperate for a son, we would love a 5th but the sex would be unimportant.

yep Amelia[nodding]-i know.
these men didnt think this though.
i also knew a family where there was only one boy and a few girls.

at mealtimes-the boy and hes dad got all the best food and bigger portions!

Sparky, your description of the women in hospital 'blaming' themselves is particularly sad as the sex of a baby is actually all down to the father!

I think the headline was poorly phrased too.

I think the offensive thing in the headline is the use of the word "attempt". It suggests that his previous efforts (ahem) were all in an attempt to have a male child, and, when that didn't happen, it implies that he would have been disappointed (if you attempt to do something, you want to succeed).

I'm a bit of a fan of Jamie Oliver and I think he's a nice guy. I hope that it was just a stupid headline and not anything based on fact.

As for the issue of men being valued more highly than women, I remember at uni having to sit through films about female infanticide, female circumcision and bride burning in some of my human geography classes. There were villages in India where selective abortions were carried out and female infanticide was common to the extent that there were hardly any girls being born. Part of the problem is the (illegal) dowry system. Girls are seen as passing to the husband's family and are therefore 'useless' to a family as well as costing them money in terms of paying the dowry.

Interestingly, there was a programme on Radio 4 the other morning (it could have been WH) in which they were discussing China's one child policy. Because of the restriction, parents are only to invest emotionally and financially in one child,and this had led to the status of daughters being raised. That was really heartening to hear.

Not surprised she was an ungirly girl growing up with 4 brothers! I do feel sorry for the children who were created as by-products of the quest for one that meets the parents' required specification. And for the one who did meet requirements but then is presumably under pressure to be gender-typical in everything they do.

Honestly I'd rather see IVF with selective implantation or some such 'designer baby' scenario, at least that's honest and doesn't result in producing a whole troop of unwanted 'imperfect' children in the process.

It's not wrong to have a preference - though I have to admit I don't 'get' this myself and can't imagine why it would matter, a child is a child and no two are the same. Admittedly I may be unusually gender-blind, don't even care about it for choice of partner, it just seems irrelevant to me, I realise not everyone feels that way though!

My mum's friend was desperate for a girl. She had four boys (and two miscarriages) and basically said she wasn't going to stop until she had a girl, which she finally did.

When I was about 11, I heard the two youngest boys arguing "she wanted you to be a girl" "no she wanted you to be a girl" etc. It has stayed with me all this time as I found it so sad. Why not enjoy the children you have? OK if you were planning to have five anyway but I don't understand keeping going to get the desired gender (she turned out to be a very "ungirly" girl anyway!)

cont'd - So IMO, preference for a boy has a slightly dubious edge.

At least it's honest. Better that than trying to pretend that gender preference doesn't exist. Bringing in out in the open, to an audience that maybe hasn't thought about it before, at least gets people talking about gender issues.

Exactly - The difference is that globally, boys are more valued then girls

a long time ago-when i went into hospital to have my children-it was not unusual to see
women having their third or fourth girl and the women being upset as their husbands was angry with them.
i even saw one woman disowning her baby girl
[because she was so depressed that she had "let her husband down"]
all these women had a indian heritage.
often the women that had boys cheerfully said-"my husband is very pleased with me".

i wonder if this still goes on?
it was very sad to see.

I agree vetnursegirl. I can relate to wondering what it would be like to have a child of a certain sex, but not aspiring to keep trying until you get one so they can slot into your image of what they should be like IYSWIM

Slightly different but similar

Link

seem to recall a mother that said she was going to keep trying for a girl after 11 boys.

I agree with vetnursegirl.

But what is worse is what he has named his child, Buddy Bear, how cruel can you be?

I think wanting a girl or a boy specifically puts unfair pressure and expectations on a child.

For example, why would someone want a boy after three girls? Is it because they want someone to bond with over DIY, Formula One, football etc. Is it because they want him to carry on the family name? Is it because they want to buy blue clothes and 'boys' toys? And what if the boy grows up to be gay/ hate football/ love makeup? Similarly, what if a long sought after daughter prefers 'men's clothes/ hates shopping/ doesn't want a family etc.

Obviously, I can't comment on the Olivers but from what I see people only want a specific sex because of what they imagine that person will be like based on gender; sexism in the extreme!

Of course, I understand it's impossible to control any natural preferences for a son or daughter but I believe a child is a child whatever's between their legs and they should be able to grow up without having to fulfill the role of the stereotypical 'daughter with dollies' or 'son with cars'.

I can see exactly the same headline in reverse about the Beckhams if they had a girl

i was 4th girl and my dads mates all felt sorry for him

I agree, OP. I'm delighted for them, but it's an awful headline and if I were the Olivers, I'd be upset on my daughters' behalf (despite the new baby haze of joy ).

Not that surprising from the Telegraph though -- the paper that, I seem to recall from growing up with it at my mum's house, habitually describes female murder victims with irrelevant detail about appearances, eg "blonde" as if they are Philip Marlowe characters or something. Maybe I am doing it a disservice but it was certainly like that in the early 90s.

Honestly!! wouldn't anyone who had three kids of same sex have a preference for the other 4th time round? (even just to buy different coloured clothes!) The way I'm reading it people are saying that Jamie believes his girls are inferior to his son - do they know him personally? He very much comes across as a devoted dad to ALL his kids. LET HIM ENJOY HAVING A NEW BABY WITHOUT BEING SO NASTY PS I had three boys first and was sick of people saying I must be wishing for a girl 4th time round. I would have preferred a girl but it really didn't matter (she was a girl - and so was my next one!)

I think it's awful to be honest, almost like the other 3 children don't count. It says on one site that they were considering adoption if they couldn't have a boy naturally.